Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

yes, we do learn these things, but i must admit most people do not follow them.

Really???

Then please describe for us something easy...

6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges

and in the context of where you learned them, what you were initially instructed to begin training these theories, etc...

Please... we're all waiting.

[sean_stonehart]

not what I said

You (TTM) said

From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.

He (jit fu) said

what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum.

So didn't you say that?

He was pointing out how what SD calls white crane doesn't resemble Fukienese White Crane by any definition of what makes White Crane from Fukien what it is.

Don't say Long Arm White Crane either... Sifu Ross & others here already have you there.


So "resemble" isn't a reasonable transliteration for "look a great deal like"??

[sean_stonehart]

He's right. Yet, what you will see is most tend to branch out or are rogues.....!!!!!

They didn't learn it on the CSC side.

Well at least they're trying to learn it!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD folks think TCMA and MMA are crap.

Just for the record, I think MMA is sweet stuff.

Just for the record, I think about 50 % of TCMA is crap. Conversely, I think wushu's pretty cool (bring it on, haters, I don't care...LOL). They're not so overly pompous and pretentious. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between 50% of wushu and TCMA. Personally, I think most TCMA guys are a little too arrogant for my blood. So much---we do it like this, the BEST way, unlike those other guys. Go on and tell me that I don't have the eye for it. I've walked into at least 6 TCMA styles (gotten the same pitch from each of them on their invincible style), and spent the past 2 years cross-training in two, before I ditched both of them for cross-training in capoeira (which is far more effective, IMO[doesn't say much for TCMA, or says a lot for that mestre]). I actually enjoyed some of the wushu at my Longfist school (which also taught traditional sets many of you practice), more than the traditional kungfu taught at "Traditional" schools. I knew, when I stepped on the Longfist floor, I was doing things differently at SD than I was at the Longfist school. There are merits in both methods, and they're really not that different. But they certainly do look different, I'd say. I can see why SD does things in a different way, and why the Longfist school did things in their way. Is SD CMA? Somewhat. Is Longfist CMA? Yeah, according to this audience. But Longfist wouldn't prep you for a fight, unfortunately. And it was taught in the traditional manner, only without much sparring (which, as I seem to pick up from people on here, might actually be the traditional manner)........ Plus, the movements were unrealistic for a quick fight. In all my tCMA experience (that is, Non-SD, as I don't really consider it TCMA, but more of a cross-cultural hybrid thingy), I was never taught a combo that wasn't in the forms. I wasn't taught how to move around an opponent using angles, how to move my head, how to use my bow stances as knee-traps (which my friend [6 years of Longfist]} had never even considered/or been taught, how to attack in combinations that made use of pressure points in a realistic way, and more imporantly---I was never hit in such a way that I fell to the floor with no wind in my lungs. Part of fighting is learning how to take hard hits and get back up, and most TCMA styles won't provide that environment. I've gone bare knuckle with black belts. I know of a handful of kung fu schools that won't even let you spar without headgear and body protectors....lol......

Granted, it's not geared towards turning out pro fighters, and it shouldn't be. But it does test how much you're willing or able to handle. And I breezed through almost every other kung fu school's intros. They did stretch a little more, and I think one of the things that marks a difference between most CMA schools and SD is the limberness of the students. But I know of TKD schools that go harder than most TCMA schools. Let's face it.....many of you are lumped into that category (and if any of you know me, you know I mean, particularly, tai chi guys.....LOL).. I know you won't like what I've said, so flame on. But I've spent as much time in TCMA as I have in SD. I don't have any obligation to SD other than what I'm willing to give it, and I tout it as better in my travels than the others I've encountered. It's compare and contrast. BTW, there are probably quite a few fantastic schools I didn't visit in Atlanta. I know of a few, by rep, but were outside my traveling range.

SD's also the only school where I've seen someone execute an arm break on a quick jab (me jabbing [quick, too], a 3rd degree defending/attacking) in a free sparring session. The only reason my arm didn't get broken was he did it lightly---but I felt it, man. So much for unrealistic maneuvers.....

Also, there are better fighters at my capoeira school than in 90% of the kung fu schools in the area (the remaining 10% of said schools are actually all Shaolin-Do schools, LOL.........). Funny, but it's probably true.......

Anyways.....who cares? You don't like GM The. You don't believe his stories. I don't really believe many of the stories. So maybe performances of the forms look like crap (they don't, but the internet versions do). Even then, most performances aren't as pretty as many TCMA performances. But I've never had a class that ever, for a second, put focus on the "grace" of a maneuver, the angle of the hand, etc. If I ask questions based on those criterion for a form, I generally get a good answer: "How far do you draw that hand back for a block? As far as necessary, and no further. When I'm doing this crane slap (kind of like a ***** slap), how high and at what angle do I strike him in the eye? Well, how tall is he? At what angle do you kick to get to the midsection, ideally such and such? Nobody's gonna give it to you, dude, so you do what you have to and use what angle you can."

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.


L O Friggin' L.


Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8

Well, it looks slow. It's too idealistic. Wait, why are you pushing or hitting his chest instead of knocking him the F*** out? Why isn't the other guy throwing combinations? What would you do if he threw a punch and a kick at the same time? Wouldn't you get creamed?

No doubt, this teacher gets a lot of respect. He has a lot of students. He's probably a fantastic fighter. But if all you had to represent you was this 1:20 seconds, you'd get an ass-ripping from everyone on here.....LOL.

I was doing the same stuff as a blue belt. Was I doing TCMA, or Lama pai? No, I was sweeping.

[jit fu]

But our Sanjie form does resemble fukien white crane.

but were you taught tun tow fow chum? these are not easy and would take years to learn. if you aren't taught this then what are you doing in its place?

[Shaolin Wookie]

no matter what, it at least will be more entertaining than "An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity"

Funny, I was thinking we ought to merge this thread with that one.

[sean_stonehart]

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?

But a roundhouse isn't a roundhouse & a straight punch isn't a straight punch. That's what's missing... the foundational training with energies & techniques.

For example... in SD mantis there's a thing called (at least it was when I was there) a "box punch".

What's the idea?
What's the energy?
What's the proper execution?

In CLF it has a different name than Mantis because it has different ideas/energy/executions.

It's not all the same... it's not "just a roundhouse".

Just like the "San Njie" form has no tun, to, fo, chum as was pointed out earlier. Go watch a video of a Fukienese White Crane or Ngo Cho player & see if you see the differences. If you do, understanding of what we're talking about is just ahead. If not... bummer but keep throwing that roundhouse.

[godzillakungfu]

Well at least they're trying to learn it!!!!

My implication is it is imported not originating from SD.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But a roundhouse isn't a roundhouse & a straight punch isn't a straight punch. That's what's missing... the foundational training with energies & techniques.

For example... in SD mantis there's a thing called (at least it was when I was there) a "box punch".

What's the idea?
What's the energy?
What's the proper execution?

In CLF it has a different name than Mantis because it has different ideas/energy/executions.

It's not all the same... it's not "just a roundhouse".

Just like the "San Njie" form has no tun, to, fo, chum as was pointed out earlier. Go watch a video of a Fukienese White Crane or Ngo Cho player & see if you see the differences. If you do, understanding of what we're talking about is just ahead. If not... bummer but keep throwing that roundhouse.

Box punch.

Throw a straight punch, rotating the knuckle to the inside, catching someone in the face (preferably temple). Use the hips to translate power, which get their drive from the jade ring (by pushing off the back leg, using the instep [exactly like a boxer would]). This punch reminds me almost exactly of what that NHB fighter at my capoeira school taught me when he was teaching me a right overhand [he taught BJJ/MMA in a back corner of the school]. Not exactly the same, but it was actually the very technique I thought at the moment, because it felt the same. But it generally travels on a straighter line, and the rotation of the fist adds a little bit of an inside hooking power. Alternately, plant your foot like you would if you were throwing a round kick in MT, dropping your weight, then drive up one knee for momentum/trapping/protection/possible kick while throwing the same punch with your body weight behind it (I contract against the motion of the knee to get maximum torque while maintaining root and balance, so you can get your hip into it--although the onese in White Monkey STP are done with the same leg, same arm, which makes it more difficult). I'm not great at them, but I do throw those box punches quite a lot, and they do connect, and they do hurt.

All the rest is needless stuff. You don't need to have a name for all the hippy energies in the universe and all the glorious dandelion harmonies in order to know that when I throw a punch I need to hit hard, and try to smash a nose, jaw, temple, or chin. But then I don't really like any of the internal arts very much, and I kind of get a laugh out of the "heavenly passages of chi" and all that stuff. Sure, I might just be immature in my study. But I really do think much of the thoery is really just some natural stuff, overanalyzed and analized to the point that it becomes a load of angelic crap.

[bodhi warrior]

Just for the record, I think MMA is sweet stuff.

Just for the record, I think about 50 % of TCMA is crap. Conversely, I think wushu's pretty cool (bring it on, haters, I don't care...LOL). They're not so overly pompous and pretentious. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between 50% of wushu and TCMA. Personally, I think most TCMA guys are a little too arrogant for my blood. So much---we do it like this, the BEST way, unlike those other guys. Go on and tell me that I don't have the eye for it. I've walked into at least 6 TCMA styles (gotten the same pitch from each of them on their invincible style), and spent the past 2 years cross-training in two, before I ditched both of them for cross-training in capoeira (which is far more effective, IMO[doesn't say much for TCMA, or says a lot for that mestre]). I actually enjoyed some of the wushu at my Longfist school (which also taught traditional sets many of you practice), more than the traditional kungfu taught at "Traditional" schools. I knew, when I stepped on the Longfist floor, I was doing things differently at SD than I was at the Longfist school. There are merits in both methods, and they're really not that different. But they certainly do look different, I'd say. I can see why SD does things in a different way, and why the Longfist school did things in their way. Is SD CMA? Somewhat. Is Longfist CMA? Yeah, according to this audience. But Longfist wouldn't prep you for a fight, unfortunately. And it was taught in the traditional manner, only without much sparring (which, as I seem to pick up from people on here, might actually be the traditional manner)........ Plus, the movements were unrealistic for a quick fight. In all my tCMA experience (that is, Non-SD, as I don't really consider it TCMA, but more of a cross-cultural hybrid thingy), I was never taught a combo that wasn't in the forms. I wasn't taught how to move around an opponent using angles, how to move my head, how to use my bow stances as knee-traps (which my friend [6 years of Longfist]} had never even considered/or been taught, how to attack in combinations that made use of pressure points in a realistic way, and more imporantly---I was never hit in such a way that I fell to the floor with no wind in my lungs. Part of fighting is learning how to take hard hits and get back up, and most TCMA styles won't provide that environment. I've gone bare knuckle with black belts. I know of a handful of kung fu schools that won't even let you spar without headgear and body protectors....lol......

Granted, it's not geared towards turning out pro fighters, and it shouldn't be. But it does test how much you're willing or able to handle. And I breezed through almost every other kung fu school's intros. They did stretch a little more, and I think one of the things that marks a difference between most CMA schools and SD is the limberness of the students. But I know of TKD schools that go harder than most TCMA schools. Let's face it.....many of you are lumped into that category (and if any of you know me, you know I mean, particularly, tai chi guys.....LOL).. I know you won't like what I've said, so flame on. But I've spent as much time in TCMA as I have in SD. I don't have any obligation to SD other than what I'm willing to give it, and I tout it as better in my travels than the others I've encountered. It's compare and contrast. BTW, there are probably quite a few fantastic schools I didn't visit in Atlanta. I know of a few, by rep, but were outside my traveling range.

SD's also the only school where I've seen someone execute an arm break on a quick jab (me jabbing [quick, too], a 3rd degree defending/attacking) in a free sparring session. The only reason my arm didn't get broken was he did it lightly---but I felt it, man. So much for unrealistic maneuvers.....

Also, there are better fighters at my capoeira school than in 90% of the kung fu schools in the area (the remaining 10% of said schools are actually all Shaolin-Do schools, LOL.........). Funny, but it's probably true.......

Anyways.....who cares? You don't like GM The. You don't believe his stories. I don't really believe many of the stories. So maybe performances of the forms look like crap (they don't, but the internet versions do). Even then, most performances aren't as pretty as many TCMA performances. But I've never had a class that ever, for a second, put focus on the "grace" of a maneuver, the angle of the hand, etc. If I ask questions based on those criterion for a form, I generally get a good answer: "How far do you draw that hand back for a block? As far as necessary, and no further. When I'm doing this crane slap (kind of like a ***** slap), how high and at what angle do I strike him in the eye? Well, how tall is he? At what angle do you kick to get to the midsection, ideally such and such? Nobody's gonna give it to you, dude, so you do what you have to and use what angle you can."

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.


L O Friggin' L.


Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8

Well, it looks slow. It's too idealistic. Wait, why are you pushing or hitting his chest instead of knocking him the F*** out? Why isn't the other guy throwing combinations? What would you do if he threw a punch and a kick at the same time? Wouldn't you get creamed?

No doubt, this teacher gets a lot of respect. He has a lot of students. He's probably a fantastic fighter. But if all you had to represent you was this 1:20 seconds, you'd get an ass-ripping from everyone on here.....LOL.

I was doing the same stuff as a blue belt. Was I doing TCMA, or Lama pai? No, I was sweeping.

I really like the way you speak it bro!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Let me ask you something Sean. Do you think karate, TaeKwanDo, Capoeira, and say, Shaolin-Do miss out and throw inferior roundhouses because they don't have foundational training in the occult Chinese harmonies? My capoeira teacher taught structure and hip flexibility in the roundhouse. That was all there was to it. And he threw a mean roundhouse. I was taught a roundhouse when I was younger by a TKD chick, and it was structure and rotation. In Shaolin-Do, pretty much the same as all the others. Understanding the harmonies might be a part of the "art", but it's not the actual roundhouse. I'm willing to bet your roundhouse is probably better than mine, but it's due to the fact you've thrown it more, not because you understand the harmonies better than I.

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.

[lkfmdc]

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.

L O Friggin' L.

Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8

well, let's see, other than the facts that

1. that clip isn't me
2. that clip isn't my school
3. that clip isn't any of my students

other than that, you really got me there

[TenTigers]

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.
__________________
people who can paint and draw better than others do so because there is a connection from eyes, to brain, to hand,like visualization that people who cannot draw are lacking. Somewhere along the line, the image is lost, andwhere there might be a specific shape of form, becomes something completely different.
It would seem that Shaolin-Do forms might be suffering from the same dilemma.
Their forms lack any movement that can be considered TCMA, yet the practitioners seem to think it looks and functions exactly like TCMA.
Watching bad kempo schools do what they think are Gung-Fu moves, techniques and forms, while their structure, power generation, application and theories say otherwise is prime example. BTW-I am referring to kempo hybrids such as Vilari and their offshoots. Even when they are taught forms from "Shaolin Monks," they still turn it into drek.
It's like tone deaf, rhythm lacking karaoke singers, or me dancing. It just hurts to watch.
BTW-I also draw and paint like a mofo, studied in SVA and Parsons, but I was better walking into art school than most who had way more art education and practice. Some people have it others never will.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.
__________________
people who can paint and draw better than others do so because there is a connection from eyes, to brain, to hand,like visualization that people who cannot draw are lacking. Somewhere along the line, the image is lost, andwhere there might be a specific shape of form, becomes something completely different.
It would seem that Shaolin-Do forms might be suffering from the same dilemma.
Their forms lack any movement that can be considered TCMA, yet the practitioners seem to think it looks and functions exactly like TCMA.
Watching bad kempo schools do what they think are Gung-Fu moves, techniques and forms, while their structure, power generation, application and theories say otherwise is prime example. BTW-I am referring to kempo hybrids such as Vilari and their offshoots. Even when they are taught forms from "Shaolin Monks," they still turn it into drek.
It's like tone deaf, rhythm lacking karaoke singers, or me dancing. It just hurts to watch.
BTW-I also draw and paint like a mofo, studied in SVA and Parsons, but I was better walking into art school than most who had way more art education and practice. Some people have it others never will.

I guess this is just where my opinion differs from theirs. I don't think they look the same way, but their function is the same (but then, most people haven't looked around and tried other things). Seriously, though: is there a difference between Hung Gar and Northern Praying Mantis, in their function and in their form? Yes, very noticeably...in the latter that is. As for function: it's still grappling, striking, dodging. That's the martial side. As for the art---that changes from school to school. As for forms......I can use the techs in my forms (so far, mine are pretty simple compared to higher level stuff) just fine, so they're sound for what they are. And some people would say some of my forms look quite excellent. And I'd say most of them are probably pretty bad.

SD is SD. I know some SD guys want to say it's true authentic Shaolin. But I honestly don't believe in any such thing. There is no true authentic Shaolin (although this would make for bad marketing of any Shaolin-based art), except for RD's Ancestor's Fist, passed down untouched and unmodified from Zhao Kuanyin.

Okay, I admit it. Now I'm just trolling.........LOL.

BTW, our forms don't look as bad as Villari forms. Come on........and if someone posts that video in rebuttal of the SD brown belts doing first-day renditions of Jingang fu hu ch'uan to "Dancing Queen", I think I'll kill myself on general principle.

[CFT]

short notice, so I just grabbed the nearest dictionary.... look toward the bottom

Cheers. I was thinking meridians as in TCM, but this is meridian as in lines of longitude (North-South lines). In Cantonese it sounds like "jee ng" - I got thrown off by the romanization.

OT: In Wing Chun circles, the centreline is called "jee ng sin".