Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Willow Sword]

My point is, I don't think any of us can confidently judge another style/system/technique just by watching it.

Actually Yes you can. and in the case with Sd and the forms taught out there you can definately and confidently judge the style as nothing more than a hybridized style of karate and kung fu with more emphasis on the karate than the kung fu.

the forms have principles and techniques,,there are reasons behind them,,there is a look and a feel to it. and those who have been in the TCMA realm for a long know when a "duck" is trying to be an "eagle" and stilll looking like a duck. plus there is a "content" to the forms as well and that resides in the individual as to wether or not he/she has "content". the old saying goes in this community "all form and no content" and why? because if all you teach is a form and only show little of its value with respect to applications,,what points(meridians) on the body it affects,,how it is really used in a combat situation,,then the form only becomes a form and nothing more

take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi. and since most CMA practitioners agree that tracing the history and lineage of that certain family style is important,,you wonder where this hsing yi from Sd came from? is it Hebei style? or a modified version of hebei? or is the modified hsing i at Sd Shanxi style? or is it I chuan style?

i know sd Hsing i,,all too well do i know it. and in my opinion it has some decent movements,,,,but never was i taught the 5 element principles or any if very little applications or techniques. oh sure it was explained a little bit about what bung chuan was for and pau chuan and so on and so forth,,but no real instruction on the system itself.
it was a 3 month course for those of us who took it when i did. it is also 2nd degree black belt material in SD,,so you would think that if it is required material that there would be alot of emphasis on the principles of 5 elements and such.
but not where i was learning it there wasnt. i had to get my meridianology and 5 element principles from outside the school just to get an idea of what the hell i was learning with hsing i.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

Willow, you were obviously taught differently then me. Couldn't that be part of the problem in judging forms by video clips alone?

[The Willow Sword]

So you were taught the fundamentals of 5 Elements and thier corresponding meridians and points on the body? and where the 5 fists come in to play with regards to those Meridian points? and the linkage? were you just told about them or did you study them in depth? and what about health maintainence during this training?were you taught the 8 vital points? what about the 16 point practice methods? or the 8 charatcer secrets? could you elaborate on these? and what about the Nei gong associtaed with hsing i? Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP. it is a whole system of itself ecompassing many principles and guidilnes for its martial practice.

if you were taught all that at your Sd school then great. however it was not taught like that at the texas school.


Peace,,TWS

[cerebus]

Well, most simply put, the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all). Yes, I've seen several clips of high-ranking SD black belts demo'ing their Hsing-I. Yes, I'm a Hsing-I practitioner myself. But no, SD Hsing-I is not Hsing-I.

So SD'ers ask which movements aren't H-I. Well it's not necessarily that ANY of the movements aren't. Meaning they could ALL be the exact same movements found in any given system of H-I. It isn't the TECHNIQUES, it's the body movement and method of doing the techniques that make it not H-I. This isn't something that can be easily explained over the internet. It really has to be SHOWN (or better yet, learned from a qualified instructor) to understand. It's basically the same thing that I saw in the video of Sin The doing a "Mantis" form. No Mantis body movement at all. Yes, he was using the Mantis claw hand position, but his body movement looked like that of a Karateka who had learned a Mantis form from a book.

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.

[spiraler]

holy shiz, 70 freakin pages of posts, whats the topic questioning? is shaolin do for real? CAN YOU NOT TELL WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS FAKE??!!?!?hmm... it might be real. then again......

[Golden Tiger]

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.

Ok, let me see if my simple mind can sort through this.....

SD Hsing I may be very effective.

SD Hsing I is beneficial to their health.

SD Hsing I is undoubtedly a valid martial art.

But it really isn't Hsing I........ if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....it's an eagle.....ok, got it

[Fred Sanford]

yea pretty much, if you just have the movements without the body mechanics that actually power them, then what if anything do you really have, a few punches at best, at worst, well, we have that hsing-i video from the atlanta SD group.

I think cerebus is trying to be nice. SD looks to me to be a fairly worthless pile of doo-doo.

[The Willow Sword]

Cerebus kind of contradicted himself there abit.

in my opinion the Sd hsing i is modified to make it look like thier own unique and "lost way" refound. i mean that is the rhetoric at SD ,,this is the "True" shaolin and the "true" way that things were taught in the temple and so on and so forth. and when you quickly deduce that it is a bunch of Horsesh!t then you ask yourself well what are these forms?

well from what i have practiced with sd hsing i and then what i have practiced and have learned outside of sd,,i can say that sd hsing i is probably taken from somewhere and then "modified". thats what i mean when i use the term plagurize in the forms there. its the same with the pakua at SD in my opinion.


Peace,,TWS

[Brad]

Your duck analogy completely misses the point. Is chang quan still chang quan if I practice it with a hung gar body method? It's the same reason modern wushu nan quan usually isn't "real" southern kungfu even though that's where most of the techniques came from. I've got a mantis form in a book here, but just imitating the pictures isn't going to make what I do real mantis.

[Brad]

And this is where the arguement kind of becomes pointless on the internet. People who haven't seen a lot of real xingyi and practiced some themselves with a qualified teacher are going to have a hard time distinguishing the little details. Like this dude I was trying to help with taiji before. His posture was all f'ed up, but when I tried to correct him he just claimed he had excellent posture and didn't see any difference between himself and the rest of us... what do you do then? lol.

Also, any of us that have trained with phonies in the past no how easy it is to lie to ourselves even when we do notice something wrong. Martial arts schools create a real familly/clan atmosphere, and it's difficult to turn you back on familly.

So yes, this thread is pretty pointless and a waste of most of our time... but I'm sure plenty of us will be back here tommorrow It's entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, lol.

[DragonflyDaoist]

...Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP...

I'm sure JP would prefer that you not insult his intelligence. You think that you have earned some sort of prestige or position because you think you know more than others here. You think you can talk down to others, especially if they study a martial system that you had a bad experience with. What rank were you when you left SD?

...the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all)...
...take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi...

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy. Those arguing against SD Xing Yi just keep saying the same things. "It doesn't look like what I do, it doesn't look like what everyone else does."

I've read a good deal of anti-SD propaganda scattered across the 'Net. When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest. We are willing to consider new possibilities and ideas about our system presented by outsiders. We even acknowledge that our material isn't quite comparable to that practiced by purist schools (such as a Ba Gua school, or mantis school).

We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

Now, having said these things, I've had enough of this thread. Arguments recur, SD slammers never show a valid point, and SD always seems to emerge bruised from repeated attacks yet still as a valid martial system. If anyone feels the overwhelming need to continue debating my points, feel free to PM me. But I think even the guy who began this thread is tired of this endless drivel. I vote that we move on to more interesting topics.

Good day.

[Brad]

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy.

Yes, body movement is necesary to produce the desired energy.

When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest.

In your obviously biased opinion of course

We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.

Anything can be argued

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

Nothing's been proven. You're angry that people think your grandmaster is a criminal. Nothing more, nothing less. You're not better than me, and I'm not better than you.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations.

True of most martial artists and reasonalbe human beings.

A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face.

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions. That's why people laugh when some of you try to pretend your superior to "sport" schools

If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

Gene doesn't allow challenges on this board(for obvious legal reasons) but I'm sure if you pm everyone on this thread giving your personal info and offer to pay travel expenses(and maybe a little extra?) if you lose, then I'm sure you'll find someone to prove yourself to

[Ralphie]

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

A SD instructor in Texas was recently charged with molesting a younger female student of his. Martial arts are for fighting. People may or may not be be better off because of them. It's a dumb idea to ignore human nature.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

They may or may not walk away. Sport fighting teaches skill. Punching the air does not. I bet you'd have no idea how to break someone's leg or arm in 5 seconds, as I suspect you've never done it. You're living in a fantasy land, and essentially are full of ****.

[MasterKiller]

A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds.

Ok. You're taught instant death dealing methods until it's time for the annual Sin The Karate Tournament, at which point your masters fight in the deadly style known as Point Karate. Am I getting this right?

I've seen that video of the master's sparring. I must admit I didn't see any body bags.

Here is something to ease your irritation.

[wdl]

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions.

In what way other than full contact?

-Will