Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BlueTravesty]

I actually thought the Ground Dragon form was pretty good, though I'm surprised he doesn't get flack from his colleagues for making it look "wushu-y." After all, I thought the reason SD forms look different is because, unlike the rest of us heathens, those forms are used for fighting and haven't been altered for performance elements. You know, unlike the rest of us with our PRC-sponsored forms (even the ones from Taiwan and Hong Kong, those are also Chi-Com Wushu stuff.) <./sarcasm>

I thought the 3-sectional staff video was good, excellent work with the weapon, though I'm not familiar enough with SD's weapons work to know whether he should have been using classical stances or not. Stylistic nuances like that can be tough to determine. At any rate, the dude knows that weapon.

The drunken spear was pretty darn good, though he probably should lean back further when whipping the spear from that angle. However, as a big guy myself, I know how difficult it is to lean back "far enough."

And fwiw, SD stuff doesn't usually get criticized JUST because it's SD- though there are a small minority of knee-jerk "OMGSDWTF!" types out there. It usually gets criticized because it is (incorrectly) lauded as the "realest" thing, and when someone (who is not a Wushu practitioner, and may have never seen Wushu in their lives) calls out an element like a lack of strong stances, choppy transitions, or lacking fa jing in a form where there's supposed to be fa jing; certain people on the SD side offer the insipid, stupid, incorrect and invalid excuse of "Well we don't do flowery Wushu stuff, the real thing looks more rough 'cuz its used for COMBAT " Which, in case I did not state my opinion on that position clearly enough, is patently and thoroughly incorrect. People tend to feel pretty sourly about that sort of thing, and unfortunately, hold it against the SD style/system as a whole- which they shouldn't. Just against the idiots who offer that pathetic excuse for a... well, excuse.

Just my two cents.

[kwaichang]

My point exactly Chain Whip you pretty much said it all. A friend of mine trains the Titans with defense hand for the def lineman he was welter weight world kick boxing champ way back when. he teaches in Nashville now. He invited me to his testing for his students 3-4 years back and asked me to do a demo. I did so, he wanted me to teach his students some stuff I wasnt able to but he and his students were happy with the demo. Like you said even if it was good ,if I were in a Karate top there would be alot of unwarranted criticism. So the answer is whats the point until these derogatory guys see and "feel' what SD has they will continue to berate SD KC

[kwaichang]

As far as the Ground Dragon form , I have seen that guy and know him to be pretty good. He did do a DEMO however, and it was spiced up for entertainment value , increased speed etc but technically the form was initiated with the right moves. KC

[Leto]

I don't know ground dragon, so can't say whether he was doing it "correctly" or not...but I think, especially for performances, that some leeway is given in terms of "correctness", as long as it looks good. It was certainly an example of good acrobatics and falling skills. It's not a form that is a part of the curriculum, that everyone learns, at least not as far as I am aware of...I think it was only recently taught in a seminar by GMT. So it couldn't be called an example of something that is expected of or taught to all SD/CSC students.

The drunken spear was excellent, at least compared to other performances of the same form I've seen. (I also don't know that one either, so can't comment on nuances). That spear is huge, his demonstration definately shows some good kung fu...flexibility, strength, power.

The three section staff was also excellent. The way it was taught to me, stances were not emphasized. It wouldn't be hard to add stances later, once you're able to perform the various spins and strikes without clobbering yourself (that's the hard part, and the level of learning most people I know are at with the weapon) Also, for demonstrations they focus on the flashy fast spinning, that's what impresses people.

Of those three, the drunken spear is the only one that I know of that people actually have to test on in the system (at least in the west). Three section staff was a supplemental, optional weapon that is offered in seminar once in a while, not too many I people know spent much time on it. Ground dragon is a recent seminar form from GMT, so far only taught in the east as far as I know.

So, the drunken spear video would be a good example of a high level SD form performed well, in my opinion. I haven't seen any videos of basic, or even intermediate material performed by high level practicioners...I think that for demonstrations most people feel that the lower level stuff, which is really the core of the style, is not flashy enough to impress anyone. I disagree, but then a lot of the demos are given mainly for the other SD students, so who wants to see the master doing a boring form that everyone knows, when we can see him doing something advanced that not many people have seen?

[BentMonk]

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

IMO yes. The gentleman in that clip is an excellent example of SD. SDIC & JP are as well. I plan on posting vids of myself soon. I do not claim to be an excellent example of SD. I'm posting to show how the diverse curriculum in SD can be adapted help someone in my circumstances become a well rounded and capable martial artist. I have had some degree of success in tournaments outside of SD, against disabled and able bodied opponents. I hope to see a lot of you guys in Lexington next weekend. I'll be there. I'm pretty easy to spot in a crowd.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The drunken spear was pretty darn good, though he probably should lean back further when whipping the spear from that angle. However, as a big guy myself, I know how difficult it is to lean back "far enough.".

If you've ever stood in front of him, you'd take one look at him and wonder: "how in the blue blazes of hell does he move like that?"

[Chain Whip]

I dug up this post from about a year ago as some "outside validation"

Tai Chi and Shaolin-Do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

[kwaichang]

Kind of sums it up doesnt it. Cant wait to hear how "they" will try to shoot this one down KC

[BlueTravesty]

If you've ever stood in front of him, you'd take one look at him and wonder: "how in the blue blazes of hell does he move like that?"

The guy is faster than he has a right to be, make no mistake about it with lots of strength and power... plus I know how hard it is to whip a 2" thick spear around.

My comment about leaning back was made in the "armchair quarterback/ back-seat driver" mode in which I tend to watch videos. I will re-iterate though that I know how that goes. When we did reverse spinal rotations, sifu would always bark "LOWER!" at me. It felt for all the world like I was parallel to the ground, but when I looked at a videotape, I was barely more than 45 degrees back. FWIW the guy was still further back than I've ever been, so kudos.

[brucereiter]

Well, he was aiming up, so it had a high trajectory.

It's funny; you've posted more videos of yourself than anyone could have wished for, and nobody here feels qualified to comment on their quality, although most of us in SD that are exposed to it can say, pretty fairly, they're excellent.

Cool stuff, man.

thanks dude ...

[Woof]

the name the name of my school is in honor of my Master

Don't you mean the school you plan to have? Or are you back to claiming you have a school?

[brucereiter]

There are only a few people in the ATL CSC schools that are a match for Bruce.

i can think of several who are a "match" for me lol ... some initials to name a few,
s.c., j.j., a.a, s.e., j.a., t.b., c.g., j.c., ... ... ... i learn so much each time i work out with any of those guys they all have very different skill sets that i can soak in ... these people are not involved in this forum or conversation so i did not put their names out but if you are from our school you might know them ...

there are several others who although i could "beat" them in a fight or sparring/push hands are able to teach me so many other lessons.

Then there is Master Reid who pretty much manhandles Bruce and SM Grooms who is over 50 years old and 120 pounds lighter than Bruce and he still handles him.

"pretty much" is an understatement ...lol!
master reid is very good. it is a bit intimidating pushing with him since his skill is so high and he is much stronger than i am. but every time they allow me to push with them even if it is only for a moment it is a great learning experience.

sr master gary "listens" very good and has very fast movement.

i learn so much from both of them every time i "touch" them ...

they both have a different way of presenting things and looking at things ... but both have taught me to ask questions that relate to the skill and knowledge i already have to i can build on the stuff i have learned and make my own understanding based on their teaching instead of being a carbon copy ... neither one of them expects me to move exactly like they do, they let me be myself ... and experiment and question so i can find out what works for me.

SM Grooms has also been all over the world and will “cross hands” with anyone who is willing to do so – yet no one has any “I whipped him easy” stories about him either. If someone out there met up with Bruce or SM Grooms

funny the only person in my travels who "whipped me easy" and i mean dominated me .. lol ... was a second degree bjj black belt, we were just rolling/grappling no striking ... very funny since he weighed about 150lbs and was maybe 5'7" tall ... big lesson for me ... lol ... he was being all humble but i was like wow you are like a snake ... he just slid in and attached himself to me and locked or choked me time after time ... i think the longest i held him off was maybe 45 seconds ... he has several pro mma fights behind him ... i went to there school and was allowed to join the class for the afternoon ...

(or EM Mullins, EM Leonard, EM Smith, EM Mingione, SM Price or SM Nance) and actually “crossed hands” with any of them and felt that they were clearly superior to any of them – I think you should tell us who you are and when your meeting occurred.

i have had a kicking seminar with em mullins and have observed him teaching several times, i think he is fantastic and i love how he motivates students he knows how to push you to your limit and pulls back just before you cant go on and repeats ...

i have briefly touched hands with em nance and i would say he has a fantastic martial understanding ... i look forward to meeting him again in the future.

i observed sm price teaching and had a brief conversation with him, he has a very humble and laid back approach to teaching i really liked him and the way he communicates with his students ... i had the chance to workout with one of his top students and found him to be a very good martial artist and teacher. he helped me a lot with my hsing i concepts ... i also observed him taking his own class and was impressed with his performance and understanding of the material.

on my list of people to meet and learn from are EM leonard, EM smith, EM mingione, these are people who have seen the evolution of our system and have much to offer.


best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

Well of the views on this section of the Kung fu forum there are a total of 52,197 on all others on SD there are 234,301 on my computer, thats good advertising KC

[Judge Pen]

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

Yes, he's considered a higher level student. Personally, his style is a bit to "hyper" for my taste. I think he would perform better if he slowed down and extended in some parts, but that's his personal expression and there's no doubt that he can do hit all the moves with his own personal flair. That form is considered one of the more challenging, physically, in SD.

[Judge Pen]

I plan on posting vids of myself soon. I do not claim to be an excellent example of SD. I'm posting to show how the diverse curriculum in SD can be adapted help someone in my circumstances become a well rounded and capable martial artist. I have had some degree of success in tournaments outside of SD, against disabled and able bodied opponents. I hope to see a lot of you guys in Lexington next weekend. I'll be there. I'm pretty easy to spot in a crowd.

I'm looking forwar to that Paul. If anyone is critical, then KC and I will hunt them down!