Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Go watch Uechi-ryu people condition their toes for kicking & tell 'em it's wrong...


Go on... I double dawg dare you...

LMAO This type of training/ conditioning is not good for the toes. You and I both know this.

[BlueTravesty]

When I was learning Kung Fu (MyJhong LawHorn/ Mizong Luohan) we were taught that a front snap kick was only for two targets- the groin, and the chin. This kick used the top of the foot more than it did the toes.

I watched my friend's Tang Soo Do class once, and they were doing some SICK toe kicks... friggin' round kicks with the toes. It was hard to watch.

The only "ball of the foot" kick we were taught was the push kick, which was very similar to Muay Thai's foot jab, (and was only for the torso or hips) or the sidekick to the head (unlike the "normal" sidekick which used the heel.)

[Leto]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.

[kwaichang]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KC

[sean_stonehart]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KC

Gotta agree with the shoes... how often are you barefoot?

I used to train in 1960's issue artic boots from the USAF in my TKD days. They're a little better than ankle weights for speed drills with weighted legs, but the weight is distributed the length of your foot, not pulling straight down the leg as it slides up & down. Boots were a helluva an addition to conditioning. Changing shoes now depending on the brand can do the same.

[Judge Pen]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.

[tattooedmonk]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.

I am aware of this.

The likelyhood of you being able to use this in practical application is slim to none. More times than not if you get into "a situation" you are going to have your shoes on .

And if it is supposed to be used in soft target/ tissue areas what is the purpose in training it so hard ??( rhetorical question) Just doing your normal training in addition to iron bone training would condition your toes/feet to be hard and strong.

I remember the first time I saw it used, in the Karate Kid . Daniel got kicked in the eye with the big toe.

I have heard GMT refer to this on a few occasions as well

[tattooedmonk]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.

That is cool. I do both , but for practicality purposes I prefer shoes.

[tattooedmonk]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KC

No problem!

[Citong Shifu]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?

Toe kicks are common with all traditional CMA! As well as, the ball of the foot & heel. The various toe kick/s (front, round, outside cross, hook, spin hook, etc) are trained early on in ones training, due to these kicks being much harder to develop then those executed with the ball & heel of the foot. Secondly, these kicks (toe kicks) are used to attack "vital area's/point" (temple's, behid ear's, face, throat, armpit, solar plex, in between ribs, liver, bladder , kidney, groin, & nerve plexus throughout the body, etc). In old times the toes were conditioned insanely due war or not having good foot protection. Nonetheless, one can condition their feet/toe in a gradual manner without injury. Not like the old time, but enough to make it count....

I think it is important for us to remember that CMA conditioning, forms, drills, techniques, fighting, etc is purely a "state of mind" and does not define the CMA overall... I feel that things have been twisted in the last three pages of posts/replies, especialy all the noise about Bruce Lee and "FORMS", lol... There's more to that story than most are wanting to talk about.. ? Example; Ziranmen (natural boxing or natural gate boxing). The art of ZRM is to be natural (self expression) in all movements, never be fixed in any one "method" (sound familiar - BL), or define technique/s (this is a simple analysis of ZRM and detailed were applies to this conversation). Now, if my history of ZRM is correct and I can't see how its not (my teacher was a direct student of Sifu Wan Laishen), ZRM is way older than Bruce Lee, his methodology, & concepts. Whats this mean, Bruce was quoting CMA the whole time, lol.... All he did different was add judo, aikido, boxing, etc to his art (Jun Fan / JKD) in order to fill in the gaps (MMA), since he didn't know much grappling, jointlocking, and footwork outside of his wing chun training... Dont get me wrong, Bruce was a great fighter, he just didn't realize what he alreday had... This seems to be what I'm getting from alot of the post/replies here...

Train and discover the arts first, then let the art evolve.

Take care.
CS

[tattooedmonk]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

[Citong Shifu]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top .

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

[Judge Pen]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

Any publishing information that we could contact the company? Contact the other autors? Ask GMS. Any other ideas?

[ricardocameron]

Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... [B]LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms).

Spot on! "Nothin's new under the Sun..."
Anyone ever heard of The Art of War by a guy named Sun Tzu?