Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BlueTravesty]

I know of 5 myself also for every practioner there is a "new" style of Tiger Crane. That said , some of you remind me of a kid I met playing a Kung Fu Video game. He felt and said that he thought he could do Kung Fu Martial Arts because he was good at the game. he was mistaken of course. KC

It wouldn't happen to be the video game that serves as my avatar, would it?

Indeed, every practitioner has a different "style." SD's Tiger Crane doesn't look different because the Hung Gar guys are just Kung Fu Dancing Queens though. And not necessarily because it's somehow "not Tiger Crane." it looks different because Hung Gar guys spend years and years and years perfecting Tiger Crane, where for most SD'ers, it would seem it's another drop in the bucket.

As for how many styles there are, a Hung Gar friend of mine told me it was first only used in the Wong Fei Hung lineage of Hung Gar, and the village styles didn't feature until they started to merge somewhere around the turn of the century. Don't know how true that is. Apparently there are some "Village" styles of Hung Gar/Hung Kuen that do not include this form.

(as an aside, Once, while Sifu Stephan was teaching eagle claw techniques (of which I was on the receiving end,) a hipster-looking kid walked in, and in an accent somewhere between Charlie Chan and Pepe LePew gave a cartoonish bow and asked "Do I have potential?" Sifu Stephan took it in stride (though he twisted my wrist a tiny bit further, and gripped a bit tighter) smiled his radiantly fearsome happy smile, and said "No." The kid was visibly shaken by this and just ran out.)

[Judge Pen]

It wouldn't happen to be the video game that serves as my avatar, would it?

Indeed, every practitioner has a different "style." SD's Tiger Crane doesn't look different because the Hung Gar guys are just Kung Fu Dancing Queens though. Didn't say that nor would I. And not necessarily because it's somehow "not Tiger Crane." it looks different because Hung Gar guys spend years and years and years perfecting Tiger Crane, where for most SD'ers, it would seem it's another drop in the bucket.That is certainly part of the problem, I confess. But it's the differences in the fundamental principles that one should focus on. And to that end, I've been taught two versions of Tiger/Crane in my day--SD's version and *gasp mrkiii*Ng family's version. They were both different, but to my eye SD's version was actually closer to "the norm." (And by norm I mean what most people accept as Tiger Crane in regard to form, flavor and principles. And let me be clear: I'm not saying there is anything incorrect about Ng's version--it was just different and different from most of the Tiger-Crane that I see examples of out there.

As for how many styles there are, a Hung Gar friend of mine told me it was first only used in the Wong Fei Hung lineage of Hung Gar, and the village styles didn't feature until they started to merge somewhere around the turn of the century. Don't know how true that is. Apparently there are some "Village" styles of Hung Gar/Hung Kuen that do not include this form.

My point is that I can't say that SD's version is any more or less correct that anyone elses. I can probably take the time to research you-tube and post a dozen examples of Tiger-Crane and analyze the simularities and differences of each to the version that I know, and in doing so I would offer the hypothesis that I would find as much similiar as different with each of the versions that I find. And in the end all I could say is that I believe that SD does a legitimate version of Tiger Crane and if properly worked and practiced would display the underlying principles and flavors that the consensus of the peanut gallery would accept. And I would say that most SD people never take the time to do that because it becomes another notch in the "forms they know" belt.

[kwaichang]

Wasnt aimed at you BT it was just something that happened, KC

[brucereiter]

if properly worked and practiced would display the underlying principles and flavors that the consensus of the peanut gallery would accept.

i would add the word taught to that list. in my experience many times material is taught by people with only a surface understanding of the material presented.

[Judge Pen]

i would add the word taught to that list. in my experience many times material is taught by people with only a surface understanding of the material presented.

You are correct. In my experience (I've had several teachers in SD and I've had the opportunity to visit many more classes) it's eye opening to see how teachers teach the same material differently.

[BlueTravesty]

Indeed, every practitioner has a different "style." SD's Tiger Crane doesn't look different because the Hung Gar guys are just Kung Fu Dancing Queens though. Didn't say that nor would I.

I didn't mean to imply that you were implying the above-referenced point, that was more or less an expansion upon a point in one of my previous posts. Lack of sleep and a bad day at work make memory foggyish (As my somewhat lacksidaisical typing in the previous posts may show.) I meant no disrespect, and apologize if any was taken.

My point is that I can't say that SD's version is any more or less correct that anyone elses. I can probably take the time to research you-tube and post a dozen examples of Tiger-Crane and analyze the simularities and differences of each to the version that I know, and in doing so I would offer the hypothesis that I would find as much similiar as different with each of the versions that I find. And in the end all I could say is that I believe that SD does a legitimate version of Tiger Crane and if properly worked and practiced would display the underlying principles and flavors that the consensus of the peanut gallery would accept. And I would say that most SD people never take the time to do that because it becomes another notch in the "forms they know" belt.

Which is the heart of the matter. Really, the standard of "correctness" is one of those 'gray areas.' I have no problem with a SD practitioner whose Tiger Crane is not as "deep" as the Hung Gar guy who's been practicing it every day for years. The SD stylist would, I imagine, practice Tiger Crane in order to take aspects from it and use them to supplement their overall fighting style, and move on to the next form to glean from that one whatever they may. I imagine each SD practitioner takes something different from each form that shapes their individual expression and fighting style.

The Hung Gar practitioner will train it time and again to get down to the very marrow of the form, using it to develop attributes that he feels vital not only to his fighting style but his own perceived identity as a practitioner of Hung Gar. In addition they'll practice other forms that reinforce many of the same characteristics while opening the practitioner's mind to other possibilities within the framework of that style. It's not better or worse, it's apples and oranges.

(I do believe that forms are not necessary for fighting- one can fight well without knowing a single form- but they can be helpful. They may not be the quickest way to @ss-kicking effectiveness, but when coupled with regular sparring, forms are probably the most enjoyable form of combative-oriented cardio there is.)

[BlueTravesty]

Wasnt aimed at you BT it was just something that happened, KC

I hear ya, I just said that because the NES cartridge in my avatar is an old, rather generic beat 'em up titled simply "Kung Fu" that I remember playing on a Play Choice 10 arcade machine in a grocery store when I was a wee one.

I can kind of somewhat sympathize with that feeling. When I first played God of War I was (mentally) inches away from looking online for some cool chain-daggers and a time machine so I could show those Athenian chumps what was what.

Man I miss Kung Fu (my wife will kill me if she hears me say that one more time!)

[Judge Pen]

I didn't mean to imply that you were implying the above-referenced point, that was more or less an expansion upon a point in one of my previous posts. Lack of sleep and a bad day at work make memory foggyish (As my somewhat lacksidaisical typing in the previous posts may show.) I meant no disrespect, and apologize if any was taken.

No offense taken. I have read some of the posts here that imply that anything but SD is a performance art and I roll my eyes at the stupidity of that impression as well. I think SD's versions have true origins and have evolved based upon geographical influence of being filtered through Indonesia and by the teaching method of mixing forms from different styles as part of a larger overall curriculum

Which is the heart of the matter. Really, the standard of "correctness" is one of those 'gray areas.' I have no problem with a SD practitioner whose Tiger Crane is not as "deep" as the Hung Gar guy who's been practicing it every day for years. The SD stylist would, I imagine, practice Tiger Crane in order to take aspects from it and use them to supplement their overall fighting style, and move on to the next form to glean from that one whatever they may. I imagine each SD practitioner takes something different from each form that shapes their individual expression and fighting style.

Which is the point of SD imo. The curriculum that we have, I believe, is set up to focus on forms that will emphasize root, power, aggression, footwork, mobility etc. in a way that if taught and practiced correctly will improve one as a martial artist and build upon the prior material. Your description of how one would take what they can from a form in SD make aspects of it there own and take something else from a different form is very accurate in my opinion. My Tiger-Crane will not be as good as a hung gar guy who has trained in that style exclusively unless I take the time to focus and train in it with the same effort and intensity as the hung gar people, which would be difficult since there are many more things to learn and practice in SD that have different fundamental principles that tiger-crane.

The Hung Gar practitioner will train it time and again to get down to the very marrow of the form, using it to develop attributes that he feels vital not only to his fighting style but his own perceived identity as a practitioner of Hung Gar. In addition they'll practice other forms that reinforce many of the same characteristics while opening the practitioner's mind to other possibilities within the framework of that style. It's not better or worse, it's apples and oranges.

Ultimately, one in SD could back up, focus on the forms that compliment them personally and begin to refine forms like Tiger-Crane where they could cultivate a deeper knowledge of these forms. Many do this. Also, many of the gray-beards in SD started at a time where the curriculum was smaller and less diverse, and you can see that in the flavor of their forms as well.

(I do believe that forms are not necessary for fighting- one can fight well without knowing a single form- but they can be helpful. They may not be the quickest way to @ss-kicking effectiveness, but when coupled with regular sparring, forms are probably the most enjoyable form of combative-oriented cardio there is.)

I agree with this as well. Forms for fighting are a winding scenic country road. You can take the interstate and get there faster, but the country road is more romantic.

[Baqualin]

Hey JP & All,
Glad to see you all start the new year with GOOD conversation. Forms do not make you a fighter, but as stated earlier it sure is alot more fun for good cardio than a tread mill.
BQ

[mkriii]

Well Happy New Year to all my SD friends. Ya'll didn't drink to much of that cool-aid that GM Sin was giving out did you? I know me and my buddy Jimmy Beam partied together New Years Eve and had a good time. Then my other buddy Mr. Jack Daniels came over and kicked my arse. The next day I went and got my other friend George ****le to go get revenge on Mr. Daniels but it looked like Evan Williams already beat us to him and did a jump inside crescent kick to his face. We could still see the foot print on his right cheek. Other than that it was a good new years.

[kwaichang]

I disagree forms are for fighting with many more variables. I have trained full contact as they say and for boxing and kick boxing and I feel there is so much more in forms than we admit. I feel the essence of our fighting is there all we have to do is look and dig for it. Tiger crane for example has many techniques to use and apply. Perhaps many cannot apply them because they dont train realistically with the form itself. Application application and practice for the variables. Forms should not be discounted at all for fighting. KC

[Judge Pen]

I disagree forms are for fighting with many more variables. I have trained full contact as they say and for boxing and kick boxing and I feel there is so much more in forms than we admit. I feel the essence of our fighting is there all we have to do is look and dig for it. Tiger crane for example has many techniques to use and apply. Perhaps many cannot apply them because they dont train realistically with the form itself. Application application and practice for the variables. Forms should not be discounted at all for fighting. KC

I don't think I was discounting them, but I acknowledge that there are faster ways to learn to fight. Faster doesn't always mean better--that depends on the level/spirit/condition/skill of the individual. I think you get a broader and deeper knowlege of fighting by learning forms, but I think to learn forms properly you have to drill them and apply them in free sparring as well.

[Judge Pen]

Well Happy New Year to all my SD friends. Ya'll didn't drink to much of that cool-aid that GM Sin was giving out did you? I know me and my buddy Jimmy Beam partied together New Years Eve and had a good time. Then my other buddy Mr. Jack Daniels came over and kicked my arse. The next day I went and got my other friend George ****le to go get revenge on Mr. Daniels but it looked like Evan Williams already beat us to him and did a jump inside crescent kick to his face. We could still see the foot print on his right cheek. Other than that it was a good new years.

Shoot, and I was hoping that Johnny Walker would have driven the final nail in your coffin. There's always next year.

[Baqualin]

I disagree forms are for fighting with many more variables. I have trained full contact as they say and for boxing and kick boxing and I feel there is so much more in forms than we admit. I feel the essence of our fighting is there all we have to do is look and dig for it. Tiger crane for example has many techniques to use and apply. Perhaps many cannot apply them because they dont train realistically with the form itself. Application application and practice for the variables. Forms should not be discounted at all for fighting. KC

Your right....but you can be a great fighter without forms...thats all that was said.....an example of where your coming from....EML ask GMS how to improve his kicks....GMS told him to do Tai Chi (as slow as he could) 3 times a day for a year.....he said he almost died the first week...after a year his leg strength and kicking power was pretty impressive.......and that's without the actual techniques hidden in the form......just doing it!
BQ

[Lamassu]

I disagree forms are for fighting with many more variables. I have trained full contact as they say and for boxing and kick boxing and I feel there is so much more in forms than we admit. I feel the essence of our fighting is there all we have to do is look and dig for it. Tiger crane for example has many techniques to use and apply. Perhaps many cannot apply them because they dont train realistically with the form itself. Application application and practice for the variables. Forms should not be discounted at all for fighting. KC

I've always felt a helpful tool to use to 'dig out' the practical fighting applications in any given form is the 'Wooden dummy' predominately used in Wing Chun. I've played with one before and you can abuse the hell out of it with no worries of accidently hurting anybody and it improves your focus, precision, power, and quickness. Anyway, my two cents concerning using elements from your forms for the sake of fighting.