Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

So I'll test for black sash sometime around 2012, LOL. Yin Yang Dagger is coming around for the third time for me this year. Who knows, maybe I'll actually enjoy that wretched form this time

You are ranked differently for external and internal classes?

[Shaolin Wookie]

SW, I think many teachers have "striker-itis" but I don't think its the art, just how most teach it. I belive most of the techniques that are taught can bei either a strike or a lock depending on the need. but you are right, most of the time it seems only the strikes are shown.

My opinion exactly. It's not the art. It's the intent. There's always potential for either one, but sometimes the mechanics change a little based on that. And that's what I've seen as the biggest difference and point of departure. It's a matter of one's viewpoint.

I hate making blanket statements about either side, by any means. But those were my blanket statements, LOL. I have no doubt that there are great throwing, sweeping, etc. dudes in SD--we learned it all from them anyways, I just don't see the emphasis as much in the forms I've seen. And I realize I haven't seen much. Of course I'm partial, and this statement makes 0 sense because of that, because I do what I do, but I prefer ST over SD's forms. LOL. Go figure.

It depends on teh individual always, and sometimes on the teacher. My teacher gives workshop classes on takedowns, sweeping, innovative groundfighting, etc. every couple of months. I remember taking a "takedowns" seminar when I was a blue belt. I took very detailed notes, drew diagrams...everything. But I couldn't do any of them because I wasn't good enough. Then, of course, my street techs were horrible too. I couldn't do the takedowns proficiently as a brown belt, either, two years later. But with hte right mindframe practicing forms, my coordination has gotten me to the point where I see potential for them all the time, especially when sparring now--4 years later LOL. IT's funny how that stuff creeps up on you over time. I was expalining front sweeps last week, and found myself doing the drills for finding points of balance and leverage I learned as a blue belt. I thought..."Where did I learn this? Did I just make this up? **** I'm good." Someone asked me that soon enough, and I couldn't remember at first. But then I was like--"oh, MR tought me that a long time ago, back when I really sucked."

[Shaolin Wookie]

You are ranked differently for external and internal classes?

2 separate programs. You can enter into the internal and do tai chi, pakua, hsing-I by themselves. You can do all teh external arts by themselves, too. Or, you can do both.

There are some phenomenal MA's in ATL who focus solely on the internal arts. Some who focus only on the external. But there are a couple of crossover points where external guys have to learn tai chi and pakua. But at higher ranks.

Yes, I do have 2 ranks. But one is nullified by my 1st degree. I'm always a 1st degree, and I am required to wear my highest rank. But by advancement in the program, I'm still a green sash.

[brucereiter]

Some of the forms use slightly different stances...no big deal. Apps are mostly the same anyways, although I think ST has more emphasis on sweeps, throws, locks. Just MO based on what I've seen. Coupla' different strikes here and there. But they are mapped on the same footwork.

I don't think it's that big of a difference. The difference is, as I see it, ST seems to have integrated Shaolin/Tai CHi philosophies to maximize a sense of flow. SD keeps them more separate.

when i have learned from master mike i think sweeps throws and locks were focused on more, with sr master gary striking and redirection were more focused on

Granted, when people rush through the internal or external program in ST, it all turns to mush. I've been doing Yang Tai CHi for 4 years, and I'm still a green sash--and it's not because I suck...LOL. I know that much. I'm a first degree black belt after 5 years, and I practice every day. Tai Chi 64 every day, now chen 18 & Pakua every day (for the past 8-10 months). They're too complicated and nuanced to move on to something new without it turningto mush, you know? If you want to get good at the art, you have to slow your roll. You have to know the difference in striking/stragegy/flow/characteristics between Shaolin bird and Lian Wu Zhang. Or between Chin Gung Fu Hu Chien and Chie Chien. That takes time, and I'm glad I've taken it.

right on ... sounds like you are coming along.

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

my entire time at the csc was focused on level 1 material mainly yang tai chi chuan.
i always went to level 1 class eventually i began to teach it but i was still there ... i think that is very important assuming you are interested in really learning

Sometimes it's annoying to have someone you know doesn't practice that much taht moves up each time rank advancement is available try to give me tips on stuff I "KNOW" rather than just "REMEMBER." But I'm trying to get over my ego. That's my test. I'm getting better at it, but I've still got quite an ego at times. I can see, though, on a larger scale, why some people might have issues with other students (say, on teh political scale) based on that same tension.......but if we're willing to get over ourselves, it's not that big of a deal. But if franchising, etc. is put into the mix, on a financial scale, I can see why there's divides.

pride and ego are a mutha f**cka ... let go of them.

[kwaichang]

When I started there was no internal / external seperation you simply kept learning, I have enough material in the internal class to be 4th Black sash as I understand it but who cares just train and get better. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I say, just practice ball kicks. 24/7. Eat, sleep, and breathe ball kicks.


Warning: Do not eat, sleep, and breathe balls. Make sure they're ball kicks. That's very important.

[Facepalm]

Listen to this Everyone

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie

NJ

Have we heard this before

or do you think its for real

I dotn know what do you guys think?

[Baqualin]

My opinion exactly. It's not the art. It's the intent. There's always potential for either one, but sometimes the mechanics change a little based on that. And that's what I've seen as the biggest difference and point of departure. It's a matter of one's viewpoint.

I hate making blanket statements about either side, by any means. But those were my blanket statements, LOL. I have no doubt that there are great throwing, sweeping, etc. dudes in SD--we learned it all from them anyways, I just don't see the emphasis as much in the forms I've seen. And I realize I haven't seen much. Of course I'm partial, and this statement makes 0 sense because of that, because I do what I do, but I prefer ST over SD's forms. LOL. Go figure.

Great observations...above and below.......as you state, It mainly depends on the individual & teacher.....some are strikers (a lot) and some are into the locks, breaks and take downs (the forms are full of breaks, locks and take downs....as you have learned)......pretty much always been in the program......then as people move on to teach they will of course stress what they have worked on the most....that's why it's good to visit other schools.....I was privy once while looking at video tapes with GMS a few years ago he accidently put one in of 2 upper levels (won't name) drilling take downs.....it was very fast and powerful....I was like fuk I'm not ready for that

It depends on teh individual always, and sometimes on the teacher. My teacher gives workshop classes on takedowns, sweeping, innovative groundfighting, etc. every couple of months. I remember taking a "takedowns" seminar when I was a blue belt. I took very detailed notes, drew diagrams...everything. But I couldn't do any of them because I wasn't good enough. Then, of course, my street techs were horrible too. I couldn't do the takedowns proficiently as a brown belt, either, two years later. But with hte right mindframe practicing forms, my coordination has gotten me to the point where I see potential for them all the time, especially when sparring now--4 years later LOL. IT's funny how that stuff creeps up on you over time. I was expalining front sweeps last week, and found myself doing the drills for finding points of balance and leverage I learned as a blue belt. I thought..."Where did I learn this? Did I just make this up? **** I'm good." Someone asked me that soon enough, and I couldn't remember at first. But then I was like--"oh, MR tought me that a long time ago, back when I really sucked."

You seemed to have come a long way....even in your post.....It;s always great to see someone so serious about the art.

[Baqualin]

SD has "striker-itis" in its applications, which thereby gives the form less flow. That's not a bad thing, necessarily. Nor is it a great thing. Many of the scissor-step motions are interpreted as knee traps----which all scissor steps can be interpreted as, on some level---at the cost of lateral movement flow and fluid footwork. Some of the short forms differ. Not many, but some. Also, some of the techniques are different. Dude did street tech #8 from a gi grab position. I shrugged, said "I can work with that", barely modified our #8, and did it just as well...LOL.

Some of the forms use slightly different stances...no big deal. Apps are mostly the same anyways, although I think ST has more emphasis on sweeps, throws, locks. Just MO based on what I've seen. Coupla' different strikes here and there. But they are mapped on the same footwork.

I don't think it's that big of a difference. The difference is, as I see it, ST seems to have integrated Shaolin/Tai CHi philosophies to maximize a sense of flow. SD keeps them more separate.

True....power has always been emphasized on the external side....still should really flow....most just can't make it happen (2 hr. a week warriors).......as you move into the upper levels that changes as more internal gets introduced to them.

Granted, when people rush through the internal or external program in ST, it all turns to mush. I've been doing Yang Tai CHi for 4 years, and I'm still a green sash--and it's not because I suck...LOL. I know that much. I'm a first degree black belt after 5 years, and I practice every day.

Hey I was a 1st brown for 25 years....didn't care....all I wanted to do was Pa kua & Tai Chi (both are a life time study).....thank God for the internal program....got my black sash before I got my BB

Tai Chi 64 every day, now chen 18 & Pakua every day (for the past 8-10 months). They're too complicated and nuanced to move on to something new without it turningto mush, you know? If you want to get good at the art, you have to slow your roll. You have to know the difference in striking/stragegy/flow/characteristics between Shaolin bird and Lian Wu Zhang. Or between Chin Gung Fu Hu Chien and Chie Chien. That takes time, and I'm glad I've taken it.

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

Sometimes it's annoying to have someone you know doesn't practice that much taht moves up each time rank advancement is available try to give me tips on stuff I "KNOW" rather than just "REMEMBER." But I'm trying to get over my ego. That's my test. I'm getting better at it, but I've still got quite an ego at times. I can see, though, on a larger scale, why some people might have issues with other students (say, on teh political scale) based on that same tension.......but if we're willing to get over ourselves, it's not that big of a deal. But if franchising, etc. is put into the mix, on a financial scale, I can see why there's divides.

So I'll test for black sash sometime around 2012, LOL. Yin Yang Dagger is coming around for the third time for me this year. Who knows, maybe I'll actually enjoy that wretched form this time

Glad to see your finally liking Tai Chi........Y&Y Dagger is an awesome form...look at it closer this time....some really cool **** in there....those two are forms I hope to master someday....when you get to Hsing I you will love shattering hands......you will think your learning MMA techniques (instead of bars and chokes it's locks and breaks)

Keep Standing,
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Listen to this Everyone

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie

NJ

Have we heard this before

or do you think its for real

I dont know, what do you guys think?

If so, great!!!

I heard that he is getting it from outside the country.

The only problem is now they cant call it The Grandmaster or Redbelt

[tattooedmonk]

I say, just practice ball kicks. 24/7. Eat, sleep, and breathe ball kicks.


Warning: Do not eat, sleep, and breathe balls. Make sure they're ball kicks. That's very important.

LMAO... Yeah you definately dont want to eat sleep or breathe balls ... unless your into MMA north /south!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Listen to this Everyone

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie


I dotn know what do you guys think?

I think that if Grandmaster The' doesn't get this guy for his movie, he's a galdang fool. That's what I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF50ssJKVA

Just think of it. After he kicks the horse into the river, he could kick this guy in half. Then, after the guy goes to the hospital, and the doctors tell him he'll never walk again, GM The' could teach him 3rd black tiger's cartwheel kicks. That guy was made for groundwork. Then they could take on this guy (the one with the knife):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC2jV8sCv1c

He could finish him like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBPdu...eature=related


Seriously though, I just don't see how a movie based on SD could possibly be that interesting. Unless, of course, they get Tony Jaa to play GM Ie, and maybe get Dreamworks to scheme up a digital su kong.

I wish him the best. They ought to aim for something subtle, like Redbelt. Great flick.

I've always wondered what the script would look like.

[Judge Pen]

He could finish him like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBPdu...eature=related

That's right from Yank the Heart. Wasn't that Sonny Chiba? Awesome.

[kwaichang]

When I was in Japanese Kara-te one could be in an organization such as the JKA or the AJKDF or something like that. Do any of you know of an umbrella organization that will certify instructors for the promotion of students within their organization. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I suppose this is more of a question for "purist" CMA, but if you were to do, say, traditional Chang Quan, and some of the moves were out of order, but you still do all the moves of the form, is your Chang Quan wrong? A wushu judge would say yes, a fighter would just say.....who cares?

I've been rebuilding the Longfist (which is 90% modern wushu interpretation) stuff I let slide, and rehabbing the Tan Tui I learned....just wondering. I learned many straight arm moves--so it was pretty contemporary stuff. Fun, challenging, and not worthless. I enjoy it. You could do any of the moves in different orders. The applications are simple, you know where the divides and markers are in the form---so I could do it bass ackwards and still learn the same thing. I was just thinking this today.

SD forms have all of the components of other "common" or "standard" wushu forms, but often out of order in some parts. Our White Monkey STP, Cha Chui--the sevenstar stuff--same basic pattern of the more "standard" forms (if there is such a thing)--4 lines, 3rd line w/ the roundhouse retreat and jumping maneuvers...the first line is pretty much move for move with most versions. I say it's the same form (although, I've seen different versions of the form between Sevenstar schools) no matter the pattern. It's almost always the same techs: waist chopping, mantis fanning techs, same footwork, the palm on forearm stepping tech/block/strike thingy....forget the name, same punching philosophy, same delivery system, same everything---and Brendan Lai, whose form is not quite visually pretty, yet technically beautiful, which I respect more than any others I've seen, isn't like most other forms.

I don't think there's a wrong so long as there's intent. I think the criterion for "standard" or "correctness" are influenced more by BS "point scoring" cards of judges than MA's....LOL. That's obvious, but not often acknowledged. I remember I was doing Tai CHi 37/64 w/ W. C.C. Chen's dudes, and I accidently did "hang the lotus" out of habit rather than "sweep the lotus" and they said: "No, you're doing the kick wrong." Granted I was, because I was supposed to be working on their form, but I was doing a technically proficient kick that took more control, coordination, and strength. I was at another Shaolin (non SD) school one morning and the teacher said--"don't roll out your open hand before you chamber and punch. It's incorrect. You're broadcasting your intent. That doesn't work in combat." But that's a hallmark of Sevenstar mantis--the famous mantis grab pull-and-punch....LOL. Since I've been drilling Cha Chui techs a lot, that habit has entered my chambering. I just assented and did what he asked.

LOL....there's no "right" in CMA, even when you're doing "standard" non-SD CMA in a CMA school. Maybe that's why I think the SD/CMA argument is so hilarious. CMA, sD and non-SD, seems to be a refuge for geeks who like to preach, spew out hot air, and feign humility with routine bombast, and front like there's one philosophy to fighting. Not all teachers, students, etc. But many. It's like the last bastion for people with inferiority complexes. If I get one more lecture from someone how my fighting ready stance is ineffective, when it's really the SD sparring stance (diff. arm/hand position, though), which is the MMA ready stance, which is the Muay Thai ready stance, whcih is the Sanshou ready stance, and provides you the opportunity to actually utilize your many animal techs etc. b/c you can transition through the movments from a superior offensive/defensive position, and then have a wrist grab maneuver explained one more time from someone telling me my such-and-such isn't up to speed, I think I'll puke. It's always up to speed, but maybe from the viepoint of another MA I picked up elswhere, or that I've refined...LOL.

Think of SD forms, diff. between mainland CMA forms, US CMA forms, and even between S-Tao forms. Could be faulty memory, etc, in transmission. Could be just different interpretation. Could be made up by a dude that could punch and kick your lights out. Could be the skill of the teachers on either side (pro or con), could be different forms due to geographical/cultural influences. Could be the teachers thought the forms were too wussy and decided to make them more technical.

Look at this dude's pirouettes, then think of our frontsweep, 180 deg. backsweep combo in Lian Wu Zhang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

I'm thinking the Indonesian school cut out many of the "dancing" maneuvers that are hallmarks of CMA wushu to stress sweeps, etc. I always thought that. I don't think one way is better than another. But I certainly think SD, GM The', the Indonesian school did. The theory behind our "flourishes" in Chie Chien, Short form 18, etc.---they're teaching a very important concept of sweeping with leverage--keeping the face away from the hands, keeping a stright line between the arm and the head, etc---throws of the center of balance.

With the exception of the flourishes, basic concept, basic techniques, footwork--all the meat of those Lian Wu Zhang forms is same.

:21 seconds in--think of the beginning of second and third lines in our form, the front snap kick to front sweep, then back sweep combination w/ quick steps. Here, more of a skipping to 360 jump.

If you still had all the techniques, all the strikes, sweeps, throws, is it wrong or is it right? Which one is wrong, and which right, from a technique, application, fighting, form standpoint? It's really a moot point, right?

LOL...story of the thread here. It comes down to whcih form is in the most recognizable order on a larger scale. But that has nothing to do with technique, application, etc., so long as they're in the same basic chunks.

Just thinking about hte theory of MA. From a practical application standpoint, we all ought to be doing MMA. They train MA the best, in my direct experience. BBJ's rules/art allows for full contact without risking as much injury, so it's a superior art since you get full resistance (that's why I like Chin-na sparring).

I'm of the opinion if you're doing Karate, SD, Shaolin, Aikido, Jujitsu, TKD, MMA--as long as you're practicing the basic components of fighting with practical intent, it will always be somewhat uglier than what CMA puts out as its clarion call for "Chinese-ness." LOL...just look at a JKD dude fighting, or a sanshou fighter, and then look at a wushu, contemp. or traditional, forms dude, an SD dude--and you'll see the diff. Fighting looks like fighting.