View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #12811
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!

    In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

    In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?
    LOL...there have been others . Mostly just individual people that the Soards and GMT just let drift away or the Soards scared off with their tactics.

    Its going to be a difficult task...do you think anyone wants to go to .......lets say Idaho and challenge MJK for his territory?? That would not be very smart.

    They just want to be seperate from the Soards , that is it . They want to be associated with GMT but dont need to be.

  2. #12812
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?
    NOPE......Not and still teach the material .

  3. #12813
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Hel.l Nah! A clean split is dam.n near impossible. In reality, I think this is going to get ugly real quick.
    Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute

  4. #12814
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute
    I'm beginning to get a good idea with just exactly what is going on here and I'm glad I'm not directly involved.

    They're making David take a polygraph in this case as part of his plea bargain. I can think of a few other people that I would also like to see take a polygraph!

  5. #12815
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC. If Sin Th'e owns the copyright on the art, supposedly, then they can't practice his art without his consent. They don't want to get into legal trouble, although if arizona is still teaching they might. Anyways that might be the case, that might not be... we just gotta keep watching this soap opera to find out.
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  6. #12816
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
    I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

    I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

    If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  7. #12817
    Do any of you "lawyers" actually know what you are talking about here?

  8. #12818
    Join Date
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    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    168
    I'm sorry i don't don the suit and tie.. I was just expression my opinion, nothing more. btw are you??? lol
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  9. #12819
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    322
    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
    That's what I was thinking. Can't they just change the name of the school and revise the curriculum a bit, and go on? I know there are people out there teaching material they learned from SD or CSC, and without permission. Are most just too small to be of concern, but a big group like this will bite into revenue and therefore merit attention?
    The way many of the forms are taught in the CSC's, they are different from how Sin The taught them originally anyway (to the dismay of our friends in the east who have pointed this out). Maybe that was the plan all along, the real reason for the changes in the forms, the occasional and apparently random changes made by the Soards during instructor retreat sessions. It's like insurance in case he ever tells them to cease and desist, they can say what they teach is their own and not what he has copyrighted.
    The system could do with an overhaul anyway, some revision is definately in order. If the alliance schools are all "debarred", it might be just as well for them and their students. A good instructor could put together a respectable training program by restructuring their material and changing emphasis. If they're forced to change, it might as well be a change for the better.
    Last edited by Leto; 10-03-2009 at 10:35 PM.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  10. #12820
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

    I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

    If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.
    actually sin the did not use crandalls translation. as far as i understand crandall actually refereed to sin the's translation to make his own.

    the chinese from my understanding do not do the copyright thing the same as we do in the usa. i think that is even more true many years ago. so i doubt jrq had a copyright.

    i only have a small amount of knowledge about his external material but i am sure much more of it was "common" take the hua system as an example it is well known.

    chen xin jia
    all of the hsing i material
    all of the bagua material
    all of the yang tai chi material
    the 24 combo tai chi form
    5 animal frolics (5 animal dead/live training)
    hou tein chi
    shein tein chi
    buddha family fist
    i chin ching (sin the's is the only one i have found with "49" postures but most of the systems of i ching ching i have found contain similar if not identical movements/positions)
    are all examples of "common" styles that sin the claims ownership of. i would not feel any guilt to teach any of these with or with out sin the's permission.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  11. #12821
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Do any of you "lawyers" actually know what you are talking about here?
    yes, but i am not a lawyer. lol
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  12. #12822
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

    http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=77dgv9.2.1

    Word Mark
    GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
    Translations
    SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
    Goods and Services
    IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
    Mark Drawing Code
    (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
    Design Search Code
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
    Serial Number
    78374677
    Filing Date
    February 26, 2004
    Current Filing Basis
    1A
    Original Filing Basis
    1A
    Published for Opposition
    June 28, 2005
    Registration Number
    2997293
    Registration Date
    September 20, 2005
    Owner
    (REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11542 N. Poema Pl. #103 Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
    Attorney of Record
    Craig O. Correll
    Disclaimer
    NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
    Type of Mark
    SERVICE MARK
    Register
    PRINCIPAL
    Other Data
    The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
    Live/Dead Indicator
    LIVE

    Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
    This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

    Serial Number: 78374677

    Registration Number: 2997293

    Mark


    (words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

    Standard Character claim: No

    Current Status: Registered.

    Date of Status: 2005-09-20

    Filing Date: 2004-02-26

    Transformed into a National Application: No

    Registration Date: 2005-09-20

    Register: Principal

    Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

    If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov__Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section__Date In Location: 2005-09-20_

    LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

    1. The, Sin Kwang

    Address:
    The, Sin Kwang
    11542 N. Poema Pl. #103
    Chatsworth, CA 91311
    United States
    Legal Entity Type: Individual
    Country of Citizenship: United States
    Phone Number: 818 341 6171
    Fax Number: 818 341 6171


    GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

    International Class: 041
    martial arts instruction
    First Use Date: 1978-10-15
    First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

    Basis: 1(a)


    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

    Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

    Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

    Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

    Design Search Code(s):
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


    MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

    (NOT AVAILABLE)


    PROSECUTION HISTORY

    2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

    2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

    2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

    2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

    2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

    2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

    2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

    2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

    2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

    2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

    2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

    2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

    2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


    CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

    Correspondent
    Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

    Craig O. Correll
    CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
    4245 SUNNYHILL DR
    CARLSBAD CA 92008-3647

    Phone Number: 760 434 6800
    Fax Number: 760 434 0808



    ===================================

    http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formproce...right/locis.pl

    (Combined Search)
    Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
    Item 1 of 1

    1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
    Title: Shaolin do.
    Description: videocassette.
    Note: Cataloged from appl.
    Claimant: Sin Kwang The
    Created: 1980
    Registered: 9Aug90
    Author on © Application: Sin Kwang The.
    Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
    Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
    Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
    Special Codes: 3/D
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  13. #12823
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    168

    Thanks

    Thank you for posting the info again. Appreciate it kindly.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  14. #12824
    In any case the instructors are btchin' about the business arrangement and money. In my opinion you would have to be nuts to just pick up, move to a stange city away from your family and friends for the amount of money that Soard was offering. It's my understanding that many of these instructors make far less than 20K a year.

    Truth is if all these guys had just told the Soards "You must be nuts to think I'm going to do that" then we would not have a problem.

  15. #12825
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    In any case the instructors are btchin' about the business arrangement and money. In my opinion you would have to be nuts to just pick up, move to a stange city away from your family and friends for the amount of money that Soard was offering. It's my understanding that many of these instructors make far less than 20K a year.

    Truth is if all these guys had just told the Soards "You must be nuts to think I'm going to do that" then we would not have a problem.
    Actually, alot of these instructors asked the Soards, not the other way (including most of the Nine Rebels or whatever you wanna call them). My old teacher went straight from working at a restaurant to teaching and then going back home. Although, lately it seems that the main CSC is doing just what you say... in that case, yeah it's kinda nuts.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

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