Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Tao Of The Fist]

As a life-long Northern Shaolin practitioner, I gotta say wookie - that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to BSL/NS, etc. I am no fan of Shaolin-Do, however I won't try to go on about this or that of it, because by not being a practitioner, I don't have the right. Defending your system is fine and expected, but don't speak on what you don't know please.

I don't think he means BSL necessarily, but northern styles altogether. I'm just assuming, I dont know what he actually meant, blah deh blah, etc.

[LaterthanNever]

"As for the whole nomenclature game: what's external and what's internal...that's only valuable if you read kung-fu books"

And you learned this from the Shaolin-Do people? Hmmm..


"There's punching, kicking, chin-na, wrestling, and meditation--which in China, stripped of its useless metaphysical theory [viz. useless when you're getting your ass kicked] is really just controlled breathing and self-control [viz. patience]."


And did you learn this from the SD folks as well?

"I think the internal/external thing is pretty ****ed r-tarded nowadays. You're either into meditation or you're into both meditation and fighting. I say that because conditioning is actually the strongest form of meditation, and assists in sitting meditation. Qigong without a good jab, cross, hook, or roundhouse is like a bullet without a gun. "

Either or thinking..yes. Very good. That's like saying any man who has sex must either be an adult film star or have erectile dysfunction. It's also like saying anyone who takes a sip of beer will become a falling down drunk/raging alcoholic, or anyone who has ever said the "F" word is an immoral degenerate but anyone who refuses to swear is automatically 100% ethical. I can see the SD folks taught you well.

Tell me, why don't the monks in the actual shaolin temple in China in the current day and age mention Sin Kwang The when kung fu sifus/masters I know travel there? Why don't they mention Chewbacca/wolfman either?

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;968055]Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, it is not Painter that promotes 8 Animals Bagua, it is Jerry Alan Johnson, from the 1970s.
Here's some YouTube videos you can check out of his old lectures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFxdk_X1uIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_Lj5p3iMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9802RoPeJM

There a lot more there too, you can find the links.
Check it out and let me know how it compares to the SD 8 Animals Bagua, I'm curious.

It doesn't....at all.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...I love this webboard because it's comedy at its best. A real theater of the absurd.

Nothing is ever the "real" deal Longfist, and nothing is ever "the true way" to practice. There are always two standards. You go to the "soft style" or "Chinese" section in a tournament, hear thirty guys talking about how kung fu isn't pretty, --or even better, the judges do so---and then they engage in ballet and critique each other on the tilt of their pinkie fingers mid-backflip.

Oh, and I'm always wrong. That's probably true.

There's never a standard to hold things to except some dude on a Youtube clip or a guy with a successful DVD set, or maybe some Chinese guy in San Francisco who's the standard lineage bearer of "Magic Missile Mantis Fist", and the aesthetics of a set is always judged higher than anything else. Oh, and when you catch a glimpse of the "real deal", it's always somehow "ugly" or whatever. The "real" stuff is ugly.

Well, then, ****, you just admitted that every critique of an SD form proves it's the "real deal."

You know, it's kung fu deconstruction. Figures...a little Derrida, some Lao Tzu or Confucious thrown in the mix, and wham bam.....A standard of criticism that never asserts one fact except that all interpretation is misinterpretation. But wait, there's more: there are guys with hte correct interpretation. You know, the Derrida's of hte kung fu world, and other people are just ****ing up the transmission. The chicken laid the egg, and now people are ****ing the chickens and laying rotten eggs at an alarming rate---but it wasn't always so. See, there used to be a standard.....back in the mists of time, when truth was readily perceived and ninja wizards fought on the battlefield of the spiritual tiger....

This webboard is hilarious.

LOL...that I'm a defender of SD. These clowns don't even know who they're talking to. Read some more books, track down some more forms, and attain englightenment....LOL....yeaaaah.....

NEvermind me. I'm a troll. The worst kind, because I'm sincere.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Tell me, why don't the monks in the actual shaolin temple in China in the current day and age mention Sin Kwang The when kung fu sifus/masters I know travel there? Why don't they mention Chewbacca/wolfman either?

Look at my avatar, genius. It's because Sin Kwang The' grew up in Indonesia, learning in a Chinese community in Bangdung, under the Central Plains Wushu school, which has no affiliation at all with Shaolin except for a stele bought and paid for by some students. And GGM Su Kong is likely a myth.

Good attack, wisely aimed. I see your teachers taught you well. You aimed for the nuts, but since you lacked an internal frame of reference, clawed fittingly at thin air.

If you really want to insult me, tell me my forms are beautiful. Then I'll know I'm a fake.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I dunno, this Tan Tui looks pretty good to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4



Traditional Long Fist isn't wushu, wookie. Heck, it's not even pretty.

Pretty/Ugly=Bad criteria for criticism.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that one of those movements in the link above has ever assisted you in a fight? Have you ever blocked with an arm held out to the side, or placed your hand in front of you with the precision of that form, or thrown a kick with such postured elan?

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

SD's Tan Tui sets--the infamous "Short Forms"--are sets of practical punches done without the "basics" of Tan Tui theory...which is.....well, rudimentary theory that really isn't that useful in the long run.

Didn't you quit Longfist for MMA? Why was that? Answer honestly.

[MasterKiller]

You know, it's kung fu deconstruction. Figures...a little Derrida, some Lao Tzu or Confucious thrown in the mix, and wham bam.....A standard of criticism that never asserts one fact except that all interpretation is misinterpretation. But wait, there's more: there are guys with hte correct interpretation. You know, the Derrida's of hte kung fu world, and other people are just ****ing up the transmission. The chicken laid the egg, and now people are ****ing the chickens and laying rotten eggs at an alarming rate---but it wasn't always so. See, there used to be a standard.....back in the mists of time, when truth was readily perceived and ninja wizards fought on the battlefield of the spiritual tiger....

...anyone who reads deconstructive texts with an open mind is likely to be struck by the same phenomena that initially surprised me: the low level of philosophical argumentation, the deliberate obscurantism of the prose, the wildly exaggerated claims, and the constant striving to give the appearance of profundity by making claims that seem paradoxical, but under analysis often turn out to be silly or trivial.---Jon Searle

[Northwind]

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

Then you haven't seen our Tan Tui, the way it is taught, etc. Your experience does not equate to "every practitioner", unfortunately. And no, Tan Tui is not "basic".

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here are some points, and you're free to disagree:

1. Unless you can fight, your forms are just forms. You can practice applications, but unless you can fight, and you do so regularly, they're just forms.

2. Most people who are sincere fight. I'm not accusing MK or Sal of being wussies or anything. They do spar, practice, or fight competitively. I'm 99% sure they likely do so more than me.

3. Forms reinforce your ability to fight, and keep you limber, conditioned, and open your mind.

4. Once you can fight, you often forget that you don't need forms.

5. When you don't need forms, you're free to do something else. Which means, your forms aren't really that important. You could make forms up if you wanted to, unless you're interested in collecting fragments of human experience, like a martial historian.

6. Anything that teaches how to move at an opponent, cut angles, work for holds, kick with precision and force, punch with precision and force, will assist you in self defense. There are infinite variations of theory, but too much theory is r-tarded. I'll bet you that even a Chung Moo guy, if he sparred regularly, would claim it was his "fancy ball work" that really was the deciding factor in any victory--not the fact that he was sparring.

[B]7. Why do people leave kung fu for MMA? It's not because MMA has great forms and Longfist basics are the foundation of peerless fighting skills.[/B]

8. Why do people, myself included, stay in kung fu as their root style? Because it's more fun than BJJ, MMA training, or Chung Moo. But the Chung Moo sleepovers are great.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Reply if you want. I don't really care. I'm sincere about that. goodbye.

[Northwind]

Those are general statements that I would agree with, as they have nothing to do with the comments I disagreed with.

[MasterKiller]

Pretty/Ugly=Bad criteria for criticism.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that one of those movements in the link above has ever assisted you in a fight? Have you ever blocked with an arm held out to the side, or placed your hand in front of you with the precision of that form, or thrown a kick with such postured elan?

There are a few movements that I use regularly, but mostly during clinching or throwing. Kung fu postures are mostly throws and takedowns, when you get to the nuts and bolts of it. Anyone who tells you this is a strike doesn't understand their forms, imo...

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

SD's Tan Tui sets--the infamous "Short Forms"--are sets of practical punches done without the "basics" of Tan Tui theory...which is.....well, rudimentary theory that really isn't that useful in the long run.

It's all about how you train it, and what your goals are. I imagine you guys do the same thing most long fist players do....learn Tan Tui because you have to, then move on to the more advanced material as soon as possible.

In general, most MMA fighters use about 8 hand strikes and 4 kicks. Fighting isn't complicated, even though it is.

Didn't you quit Longfist for MMA? Why was that? Answer honestly.

No, I didn't quit long fist. I learned everything my teacher had to offer and moved on. Quite simply, I took my long fist into MMA to make it work better.

I don't do my forms that much anymore. Just enough to not lose them. But I do revisit them, whenever I see an application or technique that fits them.

There is nothing wrong with traditional Chinese fighting techniques. There are some serious problems with traditional training methods, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Two different roads traveled, yet two very different practitioners of two different arts reach the same conclusions. Why is that?

It's because forms keep us from falling into ruts we might normally fall into without "creative thinking." When I was doing MMA, I fell into a lot of ruts, and kung fu guys quickly disabused me of my illusions. Some of my MMA insights quickly disabused them of illusions--such that, sweeping me when I had better clinch work wouldn't lead to a counter throw, mount, and pound, or that they can take a couple leg kicks without checking them. Sometimes I let people sweep me to improve position. When I restarted BJJ, I made sure not to dismiss anything I had learned, but I saw the "bigger picture" as it were. I since quit BJJ, b/c I really only wanted to learn kung fu. But my kung fu is heavily hold-based.

Your assessment of Longfist is mine, almost to exactness. Is that an opinion you found in Longfist circles?

Not me. And I still practice traditional Tan Tui--almost the same set you posted, move-for-move. Sometimes very formally, as a general rule--the equation, and not the solution. But in reality, none of us believe that the form is fighting prowess. It's just a general rule. So what does the "real tried and true" form of Longfist have to do with anything? It's fighting unreality, with sharp motions that turn "sloppier" (viz. more accurate) when used in a fight scenario.

It's just a form. It helped my SD, and my SD greatly helped my "offical" Longfist become useful. I don't even count that form in the 1 1/2 forms I learned of trad. Longfist, b/c I knew it going into the art from SD, just with a different foundation.

So, there's hte point. If you don't learn the offical Qigong, but you practice Qigong of a certain system, or if you don't learn the offical set, but you practice the set of any certain system (I haven't seen a version of my trad. "Tan Tui" move-for-move exactly replicated ever in a video), it doesn't really make a difference at all, since forms are just rules. Before and after every class in SD, we kneel in a basic Zen meditation posture and breathe (length depends on teacher). Never did that in a Chinese school, b/c it's more of a Japanese interpretation of Chan, b/c SD has Japanese roots. But many Chinese MA's use Qigong as meditation; Sd uses both. Even if you miss out on one method--that is, before learning Chan meditation techniques in Ho Tien Chi/Shi Tien Chi, and diff. methods of flow breathing, which all SD students have to learn--you still get another.

that's why I scoff at standards held to a unique Chinese Indies MA with Japanese influence, as if the official Longfist Qigong is essential to our understanding of hte Tan Tui we do, or the Northern Shaolin we do, when it isn't, because our Qigong is embedded in the art, often form-for-form.

That's why this thread is r-tarded, and this webboard is a comic masterpiece. You either do SD or you don't, and you either judge things based on prejudice, or you judge them on experience. My experience is limited to my experience, but it is my experience, and it's justified based on firsthand knowledge.

[MasterKiller]

Two different roads traveled, yet two very different practitioners of two different arts reach the same conclusions. Why is that?.

Well, to paraphrase Flannery O'Conner, because everything that rises must converge.

[brucereiter]

those are general statements that i would agree with, as they have nothing to do with the comments i disagreed with.

:d ..............