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From the spine
I must say, from what I have seen, SD is not the real deal in the realm of it being traditional kung fu.[/QUOTE]
FM I highly respect your style FYI, but Go back a few pages on this thread and you'll see reference to the National Geographic special, Fight Science view the you tube link....the Chinese wu shu champion is seen doing two of our lower level forms move for move....is he not doing real Kung Fu
Daper Dan Man
I think that's the real reason that SD catches so much flack. The marketing behind SD makes very boastful claims and the numbers behind it can legitimize these claims in the public perception. It's not that other CMA people care that we do our stuff differently for a number of different reasons--its that some in SD--and most marketing tactics--claim that we do it right and they do it wrong that aggravates others. And with the numbers behind it an uneducated person is likely to believe everything we claim. (Perception is Reality to the masses) I can see why that is offensive, but its not really any different than some of the marketing I see in other CMA styles. (Except maybe without the numbers). Everyone's stuff is the best. An intelligent person can put all the claims in perspective and appreciate any art for what it is and what it offers to them individually.Originally Posted by Golden Tiger
There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?
As for me, I take any marketing with a grain of salt and, when asked by someone, tries to put things in perspective. SD is what it is. It aggravates me when people try to catagorize it as "karate" or "kempo" or "kung tao" of "pure kung fu". It is of Chinese descent and broad enough to fit into the catagories of "kung fu--time and effort--and kung tao. The wayit spread, was taught, and is practiced, also adds a flavor to it that is unique in a way of its own.
Shaolin-do is a "way of shaolin". It's not everyone's way or even every kung fu's way. It's not even every "way of shaolin." It is A way. If it's different, then that's not a bad thing.
Sifu R. Davenport
"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."
"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."
FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition.
I think the best way to see how SD and other CMA are compared (meaning, characterisitc and technique/s execution) would be to have SD attend a Nationally rated CMA tournament with the rest of the Chinese arts... We will be having our National CMA Championship - Fall 2007 - The date will be finalized by Spring of 07.... Also, we would have absolutely no problem allowing some of SD's high ranking masters participate as judges.... (only master level instructors are allowed to judge in our tournament/s).....
I understand that SD has their own tournaments for SD, but this doesnt let the SD art stand on its own compared to the majority of Chinese arts... We will be having participants from around the U.S. and China attending... I believe this would be a great way to put alot of these issues to rest... I think this would be a great oppertunity for SDers to intermingle with the rest of us, regardless of style differences....
I hope that this can be considered... We do not allow bias!!!!! People come to compete. the winners are the ones who get out on the floor and whoop @ss, period, rather it be forms, weapons, two man sets, fighting, etc.....
Please let me know. You can IM me as well... As far as SD judges, please rovide me a lists of names and ranks and we'll make sure that they are invited as judges... This will better help SD's interests with attendance....
Ok, later..
Sifu Ron...
The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!
Registered User
Well said. I have been studing shaolindo for some time and it is and always will be the way I have chosen. But not to get off subject, but does anyoune know if
Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?
Master Of Gai Zao Quan
CS - I could not agree with you more. I would love to attend and compete in such an event. It would be great if my fellow SD students did as well. Although I am not an example of traditional SD. To compensate for my cerebral palsy, my teachers have modified my forms and techniques a great deal. However I love competition, and meeting other martial artists so I'll make the effort to get there. Hopefully a few of my more talented friends will come with me. JP, KC, GT, Baq, what do you guys think?
"Repugnant is a creature that would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of it's fleeting time here." - Tool
www.bentmonk.com
Daper Dan Man
Its a gracious invitation and one that I hope some SD people take you up on. I recently competed in an open tournament but it was a smaller more local event. I didn't feel that politics were an issue and I thought I was judged fairly. Most of the judges didn't even know I was SD. The Kwan Dao video and the fights that I posted were from that event.
Is your tournament in Southern Illinois? I will pass along the invitation to my teacher if you want to send me the details. I don't know if they will be interested (they seem to not care about accpetance etc as much as I do) but I will tell them.
Daper Dan Man
I've been thinking about if I would ever compete in a tournment again with my priorities being re-alinged, but I would love to go with you. How much time in advance I'd have to train (and how my new child affects my training time) will play a huge factor on if I watch or I participate. I hate to go and not participate. I bet I can talk KC into going, but I think he has given up competing as well.
That leaves Baq and GT. I wonder if we can get GT to come out of the closet. ...
Registered User
ill do it
can you pm or email me the details please
thx
The top monkey boxer!
"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."
"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."
FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition.
There have been many examples posted by others that show what kung fu should look like. Why don't you post some SD videos that you feel are true kung fu.
This time around I made no mention of gi.
That article about what is authentic is a little silly in my opinion. In that type of reasoning, nothing in any discipline is authentic. It also starts to leave practicality. I gives me the feeling of the argument that 1+1 does not always equal 2. Yes it is true that it does not, but in most cases it does equal 2. If you feel I am not understanding the article correctly, please explain. Which would you feel is kung fu: Wing Chun or Okinawan karate? Yes, Okinawan karate has a base in white crane, but it is not kung fu. I have seen some karate forms that have sections of kung fu forms in it, but it is not kung fu.
As for marketing, do you think it is possible that your GM is using Shaolin for marketing? Kung fu became popular in the late 60's. I grew up seeing how cool Shaolin and kung fu looked. I feel your GM used Shaolin to get more students.
WUSHU
Wushu is a different debate all together. AND there are a lot of people who feel that wushu is only a shadow of what it use to be.
BAD kung fu
I agree that there is a lot of bad REAL kung fu. There are guys in my style that i feel are crappy. However, it is because of lack of ability or not enough training or just plain laziness. Plus there are master who are making false claims too. However, the subject of this thread is SD.
Could the teachers I asked be wrong? Yes, but I truly don't think so. Could they be lying? Maybe, but i doubt it.
What I am trying to relate is that I don't think SD is real kung fu. Please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD kung fu.
The top monkey boxer!
There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?
Please tell me a few names of some these supporter that are not a part of SD.
Why does it seem that the only people supporting SD on this forum are SD guys or guy who were in SD?
I PM some people and a lot of them don't even bother with SD, because they feel SD is like a cult and it is like arguing with a tree.
Last edited by Flying-Monkey; 09-20-2006 at 12:57 PM.
Registered User
you said it here yourself.
could your techers be wrong...yes but you dont believe so
why is it ok for you and not for us? anyone can be wrong or misled...but after studying wit them and seeing them perform we dont think they are.
the same way you dont think you are.
please post some videos of what is supposedly good kung fu
(which by the way not one of us can claim to know since the temples didnt have video back in the day so we have no basis for comparison whatsoever besides each individual teachers interpretation of an oral tradition that they learned)
the point is moot really
sd is real. we have good eggs and bad eggs just like any other system.
the fact is it works for the thousands of us that study it.
Last edited by kungfujunky; 09-20-2006 at 01:10 PM.
Sifu R. Davenport
Hey guys, I will send you all more info once everything has been finalized or more finalized....
JP - I hear you... But, I want everyone to know or understand that this invtation has nothing to do with "accepting any paticular style/system" , purely an invitation to show / introduce CMA styles....
Like I'v stated before, I could really care less about lineage claims, etc. I do however at times seem to question claims made due to marketing or advertising a particular style/art.... But, life goes on, right.....
Hopefully, we can all get together and do our thing. Who knows, might just be fun...
Sifu Ron.
The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!
The top monkey boxer!
Post some videos! The Xia and others have posted some videos.
I want to see what you, a SD man, thinks is a good example of SD.
That is why I usually write "in my opinion". I do this because I feel that anything is possible. I even feel that it is possible there is a god and that god is a potato that lives under the sea. Now, I feel that it is strongly unlike that if there is a god , it is a potato that lives under the sea or that the Sun is a big flash light or that the Moon core is cheese or that SD is REAl kung fu.
I am sorry about that last example. It was in poor taste and kind of a cheap shot, but i think you understand my point.
I feel the sam about the teacher's opinions, too. They could be wrong, but I doubt it. I have not met or spoken to any kung fu master that support SD that is not in any way connected to SD.
BJJ works. Mauy Thai works. They are not kung fu. SD works, but it is not kung fu.
Last edited by Flying-Monkey; 09-20-2006 at 01:32 PM.
From the spine
Flying-Monkey,
First thanks for discussing this in an intelligent way!!
Second I'm reposting a response from earlier today
FM I highly respect your style FYI, but Go back a few pages on this thread and you'll see reference to the National Geographic special, Fight Science, view the you tube link....the Chinese wu shu champion is seen doing two of our lower level SD forms move for move....is he not doing real Kung Fu
From the spine
The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.
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