Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

and if you wear deodorant you have an ego problem. People shouldnt try to force their morays on others. KC

No, you wear deodorant so you don't have a BO problem.

And what do eels have anything to do with this issue?

Ohhhhh, you meant mores......

Anyone who has stood in front of him and seen the tattered state of his red belt would throw that ego charge right out the window....LOL.

You gotta respect that. I hope my belt gets that frayed from use some day. Screw the "white belt turning black" thing. I want mine to be ripped up from wear and tear, too.

As for the movie thing. He's got a story to tell, and he likes telling it. He takes classes in scriptwriting....it's a passion for him. Who are we to crap on that? I'm a writer, too.

[brucereiter]

Here’s a good quality photograph of the document provided by Shaolindoiscool: http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...ankcert-05.jpg

2. The person’s name on the document doesn’t appear to be Sin’s. A possible explanation is that ‘Sin The’ is his Indonesian name which is not unexpected, but its surprising that no one has taken issue with the apparent inconsistency.

"Zheng Shenguang" means the same thing as "sin kwang the" i do not know what system gmt used to spell his name as we know it but the chinese characters on his signature translate to the above as far as i have been able to tell from having a chinese friend look at it and read it to me.

3. The dates of study listed do not conform with the information given on the main SD sites:

The certificate is dated 1964, states Sin is twenty years old and that he has studied for 10 years.

“When he was 7 years old he began studying under one of Grandmaster Ie's top students. After proving himself worthy, he then studied under Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming as a private student until Ie Chang Ming retired and passed the title of Grandmaster to Sin Kwang Thé (at the age of 25).” Source: http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html

“At the age of six, after an exhaustive six-month selection process which tested patience, endurance, dedication and temperament, Grandmaster E accepted me as a student.”
Source: http://www.grandmasterthe.com/biography.html (page 7 and 8)

look closer and also refer to the "time line" i posted last week.

4. There is nothing on the certificate to indicate any private instruction; on the contrary the wording seems to suggest a normal progression through “schools” and being awarded the appropriate rank after passing the required exams.

this is what it appears to be but it does not say specifically how gmt training was structured. it would be interesting to hear accounts of this part of gmt's life and training.

<<, and has joined in many open
martial arts competitions held by the school, and made a clean sweep champion. He has been
awarded the highest Wushu athletics medal of the school. >>
this quote from the cert is interesting ... it implies that there may have been competitions with other schools i wonder if any of the "other" schools can share accounts of this. what were these competitions?

5. If you compare the Chinese characters listed on the belt ranking chart at http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg for a “5th Black” with those characters listed on Sin’s certificate you’ll find they match exactly. Sin was a 5th Dan Black Belt, nothing more.

this is true it appears. from what i understand ie chang ming made gmt the grandmaster of his system in 1968 about 4 years after he came to the usa.

6. The material listed on the certificate that Sin The supposedly minored in is not listed as being taught in any of the SD schools.

i dont know why this is or if he has taught variations of this ...

7. Nowhere on the document is the translated name of the school or the system referred to as ‘Shaolin-do’ or ‘Shaolin-tao.’ Instead its translated either as “Zhong Yuan” or “Central Plains” Shaolin. If this was the name of the school/system that Sin The studied, why isn’t that name used today?

please refer to my previous posts regarding the copyright/trademark of the system. it states the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978. i think this will explain why there is no reference to "shaolin do" on the cert.

8. Sin’s teacher, Ie Chang Ming, has signed the document and he lists himself as the “Founder” of the “Central Plains Shaolin Wushu school.” There is nothing in his seal or ‘signature block’ that suggests he is trying to pass himself off as a Shaolin Grandmaster. Seems like if you were the Grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system, or even a single temple, you’d want to list that on your martial arts school’s certificates. Also, there’s no indication that Ie even called himself a grandmaster. So what did he, or could he, pass on to Sin The? The leadership of the Indonesian school and the Central Plains Shaolin school? If he did pass this on, why wasn’t it enough for Sin? Why is there not a single Shaolin-do school in Indonesia today and over 100 in the U.S.?

i think understanding the context the word "shaolin" is used is important to understanding that. "founder" and "president" i think could imply "grandmaster" my grasp of chinese is limited though ...

[brucereiter]

THATS representative of the grandmasters belt

is this what you think it is or know it is ... there is a difference, i think when we type about this subject if we are typing something we can "prove" type what ever but if it is our "opinion" we should state that so as to not add more confusion to the debate.

[brucereiter]

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why we can't train at both Shaolin Do schools and CSCs? I've heard that if someone trains out east then they couldn't attend a seminar for example in CA.

any student who studies under gmt is more than welcome to come to any of the atlanta schools to train. if you are visiting just come on by and sign a waiver and you can join classes. we have had a few students from other schools east and west come by for a week of 2. i have been welcomed into several schools east and west and treated with respect by every shaolin do student and teacher i have met.

regarding seminars i do not know about that. i think some teachers may want new material to be introduced to the student by someone under them to maintain the same version being taught to the students as each of the schools have a different "flavor".

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....we should just divide the material up between the different schools, according to temple origin of styles, and see what happens to how the material develops. That would be interesting.

Shotgun Henan.....

[kungfujunky]

is this what you think it is or know it is ... there is a difference, i think when we type about this subject if we are typing something we can "prove" type what ever but if it is our "opinion" we should state that so as to not add more confusion to the debate.

looking at this bottom right corner

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...ankcert-05.jpg

its a red and black belt representative of the grandmasters belt

just like here:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/gmbelt2.jpg

it is a logical conclusion but yes it is my opinion

[kungfujunky]

regarding seminars i do not know about that. i think some teachers may want new material to be introduced to the student by someone under them to maintain the same version being taught to the students as each of the schools have a different "flavor".

im not to sure that there is that much difference as some might think.

recently a brown belt from the texas group joined my school in colorado and he was basically doing the same exact things we were for all of his material.

there were very few and very minor differences that could easily be attributed to the teachers own physiological limitations or lack thereof

[BlueTravesty]

looking at this bottom right corner

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...ankcert-05.jpg

its a red and black belt representative of the grandmasters belt

just like here:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/gmbelt2.jpg

it is a logical conclusion but yes it is my opinion

The second one is red and black. The first one on the old-timey-looking document, was just red. No black.

[chiballsoffire]

"Zheng Shenguang" means the same thing as "sin kwang the" i do not know what system gmt used to spell his name as we know it but the chinese characters on his signature translate to the above as far as i have been able to tell from having a chinese friend look at it and read it to me.

Since apparently neither you nor I are Chinese linguists, I think you should avoid making statements about what means what. The bottom line is, like most things having to do with this system, you simply don’t know for sure. You’re trying to craft a response that will allow you to retain your faith in this man.

look closer and also refer to the "time line" i posted last week.

To be perfectly frank, your timeline is of no interest to me with regards to the information provided on the certificate. You do not appear to be a senior-ranking person in SD who might know, and I doubt you’ve ever had a substantive conversation with Sin The about his training history. The document states what it states….he started his studies at the age of 10, finished at 20. That doesn’t match with what SD now says, period. So, either the person who wrote this certificate (ostensibly Ie since his name appears on it) is telling the truth or Sin is telling the truth. Either way it doesn’t add up. Please look closer…..

this is true it appears. from what i understand ie chang ming made gmt the grandmaster of his system in 1968 about 4 years after he came to the usa.

In your post # 6896 (also containing the timeline) you wrote that all the evidence you could find showed that Ie named Sin the grandmaster, now you state that from what you understand Ie made Sin The grandmaster in 1968. So do you have any evidence (no hearsay please)? Lineages can be confusing, but this is something that supposedly happened 39 years ago….not 100, not 200….there ought to be something you or someone in SD could present.

please refer to my previous posts regarding the copyright/trademark of the system. it states the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978. i think this will explain why there is no reference to "shaolin do" on the cert.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t explain anything. As has been pointed out on this forum and others that you post to, Sin tried to copyright/trademark Shaolin about 15 years ago, sue a former student, etc., and failed utterly to do so. But that is an entirely different subject. The question was, if he inherited Ie’s entire system, why did he not use the school’s name? The answer has nothing to do with trademarks or copyrights. Here’s the answer: He was never named to be Ie’s successor, he never inherited Ie’s school and he was never promoted by Ie or anyone else to grandmaster. Sin named his school Shaolin-do and made himself the grandmaster of that school. If Sin actually had a document signed by Ie making him the grandmaster, (and a few signed depositions/statements from senior students/instructors of the Indonesian school confirming that fact) it would be a fairly easy process to copyright the name, program, material, etc. But he doesn’t does he? So, 39 years later his convoluted set of half-truths, deceptions and lies have come full circle. The truth is always a much easier and much more consistent story to maintain.

i think understanding the context the word "shaolin" is used is important to understanding that. "founder" and "president" i think could imply "grandmaster" my grasp of chinese is limited though ..

What are you talking about here? Context? Oh, yeah that whole meaningless debate on this thread about current Western interpretations of what the word Shaolin implies or doesn’t imply. And again with the Chinese translator routine…. That debate is not germane to the issue of this certificate. If Ie was the grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system or even one of the affiliated temples, why isn’t that indicated on the document? Two separate translators at two separate times (probably unaffiliated with SD) used the word “founder.” So, did Ie “found” the entire Shaolin system? Or was he the “founder” of a Shaolin Temple? (This is at the heart of what Sin The claims to have inherited.) What did he “found?” The easy answer is that he is the founder of the “Central Plains” Shaolin Wushu school in Bandung, Indonesia.

Remember…..cyanide smells like toasted almonds……so give that next dose of Kool-Aid a little sniff.

[Yao Sing]

You guys are basing your entire argument on pics that could be Li Bao Shu or SKTJ all the pics could be the same guy but represented as the other. Even if the 2 or 3 pics are the same person it only proves the pics are the same person and does not prove that SKDJ did not exist .

I think it's a good indication the someone along the line lied. The picture is claimed to be Su Kong and NOT a representation of of his disease. If it isn't him but it's being passed off as him then either Sin The is lying or he was lied to about the picture.

on the right side it says five levels of black belt .....could it mean that he mastered all five levels of black belt and that is the reason why he is the 10th degree black belt?? If he graduated then he would be more than a 5th black , correct??

It's my understanding that 10the degree = head of system so anyone at the top of the system would automatically jump to 10th even if they were just 5th. No issue here.

chiballsoffire has a pretty good analysis but there seems to be a lack of concrete evidence for either position although you can't prove a negative. There's always the chance that Sin The was sold a bill of goods. The thing that seems odd to me is that so much digging and analyzing documents and photos has to occur to get any answers.

Bottom line it sounds like you either take Sin's word for it or you don't. Most of us don't because we see nothing indicating we should. It may be all circumstantial but it all points to a story much less grand than has been portrayed.

I think it's more likely that it's been embellished quite a bit, fairly typical of Chinese arts, more so from Indonesians from what I've heard.

[kwaichang]

You guys all remind me of a dog my brother owned named Sniper. He would chase cars and would never catch them. One day a car slowed down so he could catch it and the stupid dog just sat there and looked at the car. That is like you guys even if you could prove all your accusations it still means nothing. GM Sin The continues to teach out more than any of you guys ever hoped to learn in a life time with your current teachers. I for one have trained since 1981 in SD and started back in 1992 till now. SD IS all I ever hoped to find. If you guys are so heii bent on disproving the SD lineage then contact the man himself and "push" the issue. I dont think any of you will because as they say in the old west you guys are cowards. KC

[chiballsoffire]

You guys all remind me of a dog my brother owned named Sniper. He would chase cars and would never catch them. One day a car slowed down so he could catch it and the stupid dog just sat there and looked at the car. That is like you guys even if you could prove all your accusations it still means nothing. GM Sin The continues to teach out more than any of you guys ever hoped to learn in a life time with your current teachers. I for one have trained since 1981 in SD and started back in 1992 till now. SD IS all I ever hoped to find. If you guys are so heii bent on disproving the SD lineage then contact the man himself and "push" the issue. I dont think any of you will because as they say in the old west you guys are cowards. KC

What don't you go play in traffic with your dog old man. Typical hostile response from someone who can't come to grips with the fact that they've wrapped their pathetic lives around someone who is essentially a conman.

[DPL]

Since apparently neither you nor I are Chinese linguists, I think you should avoid making statements about what means what. The bottom line is, like most things having to do with this system, you simply don’t know for sure. You’re trying to craft a response that will allow you to retain your faith in this man.

Bruce gave you a valid response. He had someone who speaks Chinese look at it for him. If you don't read Aramaic, or even Greek, can you trust everything you read in the Bible? Are you sure the Brothers Karamazov was correctly translated? Maybe it's really about some circus performers in Moscow who have wild and crazy adventures with their dog. Don't bullsh!t around - there's enough of that on this thread already.

To be perfectly frank, your timeline is of no interest to me with regards to the information provided on the certificate. You do not appear to be a senior-ranking person in SD who might know, and I doubt you’ve ever had a substantive conversation with Sin The about his training history. The document states what it states….he started his studies at the age of 10, finished at 20. That doesn’t match with what SD now says, period. So, either the person who wrote this certificate (ostensibly Ie since his name appears on it) is telling the truth or Sin is telling the truth. Either way it doesn’t add up. Please look closer…..

So once again Bruce answers your question and you say 'I'M NOT GONNA LOOK AT YOUR ANSWER 'CAUSE YOU DON'T RANK HIGH ENOUGH'. Which, if folks had applied that logic to Einstein, would've slowed down the pace of development in physics quite a bit, don't you think?

In your post # 6896 (also containing the timeline) you wrote that all the evidence you could find showed that Ie named Sin the grandmaster, now you state that from what you understand Ie made Sin The grandmaster in 1968. So do you have any evidence (no hearsay please)? Lineages can be confusing, but this is something that supposedly happened 39 years ago….not 100, not 200….there ought to be something you or someone in SD could present.

Believe it or not, 'All the evidence I can find' and 'It's my understanding' actually mean pretty much exactly the same thing.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t explain anything. As has been pointed out on this forum and others that you post to, Sin tried to copyright/trademark Shaolin about 15 years ago, sue a former student, etc., and failed utterly to do so. But that is an entirely different subject. The question was, if he inherited Ie’s entire system, why did he not use the school’s name? The answer has nothing to do with trademarks or copyrights. Here’s the answer: He was never named to be Ie’s successor, he never inherited Ie’s school and he was never promoted by Ie or anyone else to grandmaster. Sin named his school Shaolin-do and made himself the grandmaster of that school. If Sin actually had a document signed by Ie making him the grandmaster, (and a few signed depositions/statements from senior students/instructors of the Indonesian school confirming that fact) it would be a fairly easy process to copyright the name, program, material, etc. But he doesn’t does he? So, 39 years later his convoluted set of half-truths, deceptions and lies have come full circle. The truth is always a much easier and much more consistent story to maintain.

Why would he be provided Ie's notes and treated as an honored colleague by Ie's contemporaries? Who's to say he DOESN'T have something signed by Ie that names him grandmaster? Do you know he doesn't have that document? Have you been rummaging through his stuff? Was that you trying on his daughter's underwear and getting chased by the cops across town?

Do you honestly think he cares what you, bold and daring Internet warrior though you are, think about him?

What are you talking about here? Context? Oh, yeah that whole meaningless debate on this thread about current Western interpretations of what the word Shaolin implies or doesn’t imply. And again with the Chinese translator routine…. That debate is not germane to the issue of this certificate. If Ie was the grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system or even one of the affiliated temples, why isn’t that indicated on the document? Two separate translators at two separate times (probably unaffiliated with SD) used the word “founder.” So, did Ie “found” the entire Shaolin system? Or was he the “founder” of a Shaolin Temple? (This is at the heart of what Sin The claims to have inherited.) What did he “found?” The easy answer is that he is the founder of the “Central Plains” Shaolin Wushu school in Bandung, Indonesia.

This is almost too bizarre a response to even address. 'Founder' and 'grandmaster' are also non-exclusive terms, as are 'president', 'CEO', 'ditch-digger' and 'dude'. You can actually be all of these at the same time! Isn't that cool!

Much like you can be a doofus and an Internet warrior at the same time. But you should know that already.

Remember…..cyanide smells like toasted almonds……so give that next dose of Kool-Aid a little sniff.

Iron stomach training. Lots of peppers and hot sauce. Don't need to worry about it.

It would help you sound more intelligent if you actually parsed through the logic behind your arguments before posting them.

Cheers!

[kwaichang]

Chiballsoffire wasnt it you who were going to a seminar at Rusty Grays in Nashville ? That really takes away from your credibility if you have any. Dont talk to me about Conmen if you go there for lessons. You want the truth then you ask him we apparantly dont have the answers you seek. KC BTW if you are in Nashville I will be glad to work out with you if you promise to be gentle haha

[Judge Pen]

This is almost too bizarre a response to even address. 'Founder' and 'grandmaster' are also non-exclusive terms, as are 'president', 'CEO', 'ditch-digger' and 'dude'. You can actually be all of these at the same time! Isn't that cool!

LOL. Thanks for the morning chuckle.

I don't get chiballs of fire. He must be an alias for someone else because why would a "newbie" create an account indicating that they've trained hung gar for 8 years and not talk about anything but what a fraud SD is? It's not like there isn't anyone else in the martial world championing that cause. I think I would give more consideration to his posts and attempt to carry on an intelligent conversation with him if 1) his first posts were personal and attacking and 2) if he actually wanted to talk about a number of other things and his distaste for SD. Look at Yao Sing, MK, greedcloud, heck even the artist formerly known as Fu Pow. They all contribute to many discussions including this one. Many of them share chiballs' opinions, but its not their only point they want to make. That, at least in my mind, gives more credibility to their statements even if I disagree.