Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[hskwarrior]

Created, 1956, Beijing. How do you learn it pre 1930's in Fujian Province???

just more SIN THE lies. sad really.

[bawang]

to save shaolin do, you must destroy shaolin do.

[brucereiter]

Those on here that do tai Chi should push hands with Master Leonard or Joe Schaefer in Texas, you will be schooled very quickly in Push hand , JS in austin defeated the push hand champion while on one of the trips to China I believe it was 2002?. any way i guess their skill was just dropped out of the sky. KC

neither of them in my opinion are experts in tai chi chuan.

[Kellen Bassette]

I could care less where he picked up 24, everyone and their brother does it. It's probably the most popular form in the world...it's just absurd to call modern 24 a Shaolin form.

Somebody had claimed it somewhere on this thread...doesn't matter who and I don't care enough to look through all that just to call someone out on something ridiculous.

[brucereiter]

The article shows Tai Chi was practiced at shaolin. MA were brought into the temple from out side sources. GMThe did not say Tai Chi was from the temple but was associated with it and developed further there. Also he said he was taught by others in Indonesia but later was a select pupil of Master Ie.
As far as argument or proving something I am merely posting articles or exerpts and what I have been told or learned, i am not trying to prove anything to any one, or convince anyone of anything. Just Joe friday " just the facts " thats all I want to see. Many post hearsay or opinion on here. KC

kc,

do you think that the yang 64 tai chi is the same tai chi that cheng man ching did?
i think it is. if it is then this contradicts the following quote by sin the (or jim halladay since they are co authors)


sin the says confusing, indirect, misleading information like the quote below about the history of "yang 64".

page 82 chapter 10 shaolin do secrets from the temple by sin kwang the'
"the main style taught in shaolin do is considered to be the 64 movement yang style. while not identical to the present day yang style it is identical to a more rarely seen form which is termed "temple style" tai chi churn. temple style tai chi chuan is considered by some to be the most authentic style of tai chi chuan in existence today and it probably is the yang 64 style in an older form before it was modified over generations.

[brucereiter]

I could care less where he picked up 24, everyone and their brother does it. It's probably the most popular form in the world...it's just absurd to call modern 24 a Shaolin form.

Somebody had claimed it somewhere on this thread...doesn't matter who and I don't care enough to look through all that just to call someone out on something ridiculous.

in the late 1990's when i was taught the 24 form it was called "shaolin combination tai chi form" and we were told it is exactly like the shaolin monks used to practice in old times. even at the time i knew this was not true. my former sd teacher has since stopped saying this.

[kwaichang]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

[Kellen Bassette]

in the late 1990's when i was taught the 24 form it was called "shaolin combination tai chi form" and we were told it is exactly like the shaolin monks used to practice in old times. even at the time i knew this was not true. my former sd teacher has since stopped saying this.

Good for him...when I was a teenager I heard the Bodhidharma bringing Kung Fu to Shaolin story. I wasn't naive enough to believe all the over the top legends, but the part about him creating the exercises that later became Shaolin Kung Fu seemed reasonable, so I repeated the story.

Since then historians, have proven that to be inaccurate. So if someone were to ask, I'd say it was an old legend, these are the facts, as far as we know, now.

Nothing wrong with learning more and correcting yourself. The guys that say something, then it turns out wrong but they still stand by it to the end...you got to wonder why....

[Leto]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

Tai chi was derived from shaolin martial arts, and early Chen tai chi may have been very similar to the other martial arts still being practiced in and around shaolin at the time. But I don't think anyone said it was developed or refined in shaolin, at least not until modern times, and certainly not Yang style, which are the forms we are talking about. Where are the other people who practice this temple version of taijiquan, which is so similar to the yang style?
You really don't see how our Yang style tai chi is identical to Cheng Man Ching's form? Some techniques are performed differently (or incorrectly), and there are some extraneous movements added, but in the order and number of postures it is identical. If it really was an older Yang style form, it would be about twice as long with many more postures. The most you could say is that Sin The used the framework of Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form and decided to perform the tai chi chuan in his own way, thus making it a different "style". But that's like doing a cover version of a song. It isn't a different song, even though it sounds all crazy with a different tempo and instruments so you can hardly recognize it.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/jyZqQwmIqC8
http://youtu.be/UiIT2UEpYN0
http://youtu.be/JbHeHxetSbQ
http://youtu.be/vsDPy7zMrA4

Here are 4 different tai chi forms, SD is called the 64 at times so i included 2 of those. KC

[brucereiter]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

i have not done push hands with sin the or bill leonard. i have never met bill leonard and sin the would not do push hands with me when we were together. i have met a small handful of sd people who were very skilled with push hands etc but the vast majority i do not think had any understanding of it and how it relates to self defense.

i think the yang tai chi chuan applications that sin the teaches are pretty good. which is one of the reasons i want to know the true history.

i think yang 64 is a great "form" i have spent many years studying it and will continue for many more.

i think it is fair for me to question sin the's claims regarding yang 64.

i remember asking my teacher in the late 90's if it was the same as cmc tai chi and was told NO it is not! its from shaolin and very old.
based on all of the evidence that is available to me i would say it is cmc tai chi chuan with a few postures like hands wave in clouds changes. in all of my years of researching tai chi chuan the only form i have found that matches up to the yang 64 form is cmc tai chi. why do you think this is?

to me there is no way in good conscience to say the 24 tai chi form is shaolin, especially Fukien shaolin.

why does sin the need to make its origins so mysterious? what is temple tai chi?
i have said before that i think it is possible that the learned it from i.e. but still the timeframe does not add up since he says his introduction to internal was the crazy guy.
if you go by the available dates sin the claims he learned all of hsing i and all of the bagua and chen, yang 64 and 24 forms in a very short time if he did infact learn these personally from ie chang ming.

[brucereiter]

http://youtu.be/jyZqQwmIqC8

looks nice. is this not the same form practiced in sd?

http://youtu.be/UiIT2UEpYN0

this is not the same form they is the #64 in reference to the trigrams.
http://english.wudanggongfuwang.com/plus/view.php?aid=2
some info about that teacher and his history and leads to more info on their history are available there.
this form has nothing to do with cmc or the yang 64 sin the teaches

http://youtu.be/JbHeHxetSbQ

not bad form ... what does this have to do with sin the's claims?

http://youtu.be/vsDPy7zMrA4

Here are 4 different tai chi forms, SD is called the 64 at times so i included 2 of those. KC

nice video of cmc. note sin the dresses like him when he taught his tai chi applications and had a very similar way of movement.

[One student]

kc,

do you think that the yang 64 tai chi is the same tai chi that cheng man ching did?
i think it is. if it is then this contradicts the following quote by sin the (or jim halladay since they are co authors)


sin the says confusing, indirect, misleading information like the quote below about the history of "yang 64".

page 82 chapter 10 shaolin do secrets from the temple by sin kwang the'
"the main style taught in shaolin do is considered to be the 64 movement yang style. while not identical to the present day yang style it is identical to a more rarely seen form which is termed "temple style" tai chi churn. temple style tai chi chuan is considered by some to be the most authentic style of tai chi chuan in existence today and it probably is the yang 64 style in an older form before it was modified over generations.

I am by no means a scholar of CMA, but I've always considered that SD taught that TC had origins and connections to Shaolin Temple, and that beginning training in TC started with what SD teaches as the "Yang 64" or whatever it is called, and then expands TC training with the TC weapons and Chen style as well. I first learned TC (the Yang 64) in Lexington in the early 80's, directly from GMST, don't recall ever being told anything about it was THE form done at the SL temple.

So here are some other perspectives on the history or TC and its connections to Shaolin:

"After graduating from the famous Shaolin Monastery, the fountainhead of Shaolin Kung Fu, Chi Kung, and Zen, Zhang San Feng continued his martial arts practice and spiritual development in the Purple Summit Temple on Wudang Mountain, which is one of the most important of the sacred mountains of Taoism.

"One day Zhang San Feng witnessed a fight between a snake and a crane (some documents say a sparrow), and this inspired him to modify his comparatively hard Shaolin Kungfu into a softer style which was then known as Wudang 32-Pattern Long Fist. This later developed into Tai Chi Chuan. . . .

"Some people suggest that Chen Wang Ting might have been influenced by Shaolin Kungfu directly, as the Chen Family Settlement is not far from the Shaolin Monastery in the same province, and virtually all Tai Chi patterns and principles, except those touching on Taoist philosophy, are also found in Shaolin Kungfu."

From: Wong Kiew Kit, "The Complete Book of Tai Chi Chuan" (2002), p. 19, 23. GMST told the same story about the crane and the snake fight day 1 in Tai Chi class. One could theorize that the "Temple" referred to in so-called "Temple Style" is in fact the Purple Summit Temple (see the quote from Lu Shengli, below). Also:

"The highest level of Weijia [external fist] practice was Shaolin, and Zhang Sanfeng is known to have been an innovative student of Shaolin. He may well have made the changes in Weijia practice and concepts that provided the basis for the new style of Neijia [internal fist]. . . .

"The history of the founder of Tai Chi Quan has puzzled people for 200 years. According to legend, there were originally 5 different kinds of Tai Chi Quan. . . .

"Xu Xuanping, a hermit who lived on Chengyang Mountain during the Tang Dynasty, practiced a form of Tai Chi Quan called 'San Shi Qi' or 'Thirty-Seven Postures.' He was tall, had long hair and a beard, and could run as fast as a horse. Every day he carried wood down the mountain to barter it for alcohol. . . . The movements of Xu's 37 Postures form, known as Chan Quan or the Long Form, are very close to what we practice today. . . .

"Zhan Sanfeng's Taiji Quan is called Shi San Shi or the '13 Posture Form.' It has become very popular and is the form most commonly practiced today. When people say Taiji Quan, they are usually referring to Zhang Sanfeng's form. The main variants of this style Chen style, Yang style, Wu (tone 2) style, Wu (tone 3) style, and Sun style.

"Today, with the exception of Zhang Sanfeng's form, the old styles of Taiji Quan are almost lost. Only a few old masters know anything about them. Some people even doubt the existence of these old styles, believing instead that the forms were devised within the last one hundred years."

From: Lu Shengli (translated by Zhang Yun), "Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua" (2006), p. 6, 43-45. SD is not unique for tall tales (Xu "could run as fast as a horse"). And by the way this book also discusses the qigong practice methods of "Xiantian Quan," or "Pre-birth Skills," which some SD students will recognize as what GMST called "Shien Tien Chi" or "breathing methods from before you were born" training in his chi kung or qigong classes.

Although just a theory, there is nothing to say that someone from China or somewhere else who learned what SD calls the Yang 64 or the 24 didn't have contacts with one of the other teachers at the Chuan Yen school in Indonesia. And told stories of the "Temple" Style of Zhang San Feng which according to these texts developed from Shaolin Kung Fu and into the modern forms. Just a theory.

[kwaichang]

This is what i was explaining with the posting of the Wu Dang style form and the mention that many forms are called 64 or 37 or 108 or whatever. KC

[kwaichang]

Look familiar
http://youtu.be/sR0FLOJyQQA

Things that make you go Hummm KC