Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BentMonk]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP.

[cjurakpt]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP.

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example?

[tattooedmonk]

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example?

I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

[cjurakpt]

I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

[tattooedmonk]

when I get my computer fixed I plan to post some videos.

[WhiteEarp]

Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!

[Judge Pen]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!

Did you get more pics together or even some clips of the forms that Master Ie taught your teacher? We were waiting for that info.

[BentMonk]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

[brucereiter]

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

HI ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

THIS IS ME:-)

ya get more than 15 seconds.

enjoy ... any constructive comments are welcome.

[Yao Sing]

Props for putting yourself out there but I was hoping to see some Shaolin Kung Fu a la Shaolin Do. Maybe some of that Hua or a bird set we always hear about.

Something with some good apps. Anyone got a clip like that worth watching? (I'll let the internal guys post feedback on your clips)

[MasterKiller]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

[BoulderDawg]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

That is if these mystical magical deadly skills ever existed in the first place. Something tells me the truth was a lot different.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

This is all I am going to say about Shao-lin-Do. It's a compound word that begins with a B and ends in a T. The word is 8 letters long. Can you guess what word it is boys and girls? Hint: the 2 of the two words rhymes with "Hit".

I knew you could guess it boys and girls...

I was talking to this guy in a Thai restaurant about 3 months ago in the bar area. I order my second beer(Tsing-Tao--good stuff) and the guy sits down. We start talking about assorted odds and ends about the world,etc.

Somehow we get on the subject of Martial arts. He starts telling me "Well the Shao-lin system has 900 styles..the grandmaster of our system Sin Kwang The learned all 900" :

I say "Well..I think you've been misinformed..shaolin is a PLACE..not a style"

Him: "I beg to differ. Sin Kwang The learned all 900 styles. He should know..he told us so"

Me: " A style is composed of forms. Forms are composed of patterns. Patterns are composed of individual moves. Are you saying he learned 900 forms"?

Him: "He learned the whole SHAO-LIN system"

Me: reiterating what I last said. Then I add: "To give you an example. There is a style known as Choy Li Fut. It has in some lineages..close to 200 forms. Even if each of the 900 styles you claim that Sin Kwang The learned only had 2 forms per style..that would be 1800 forms to learn. If there were a standard number of 10 forms per style that would be 9,000 forms. Unless he started studying at birth and lived to 400 years old and practiced all of those 400 years..learning even 1800 forms much less 9,000 is impossible."

Him: "If you don't believe me you can schedule a consultation. Our head instructor will be happy to explain it to you"

Me: "So..who do you think is going to win the next Presidential election"?

[BlueTravesty]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP.

Then the trick is to choose someone to represent your style, post a vid, and DON'T TELL ANYONE IT'S SHAOLIN DO. And wear some non-gi form of clothing. T shirt and sweats is just fine for any sort of extra-curricular martial art practice. That way, if it's one of these "excellent" SD performances that looks soooo much better than all these chumps (who've been practicing mantis and little else for the entirety of their involvement in martial arts ) we won't be able to tell the difference.
...
Right?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...