View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13801
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    If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.
    Bertrand Russell.

  2. #13802
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherLove View Post
    "Wong Kiew Kit also claims to cure people's cancer by using his chi from a thousand miles away."

    Can you present evidence proving that he can't?
    Great argument you've got there. You should Google "Burden of Proof" sometime.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  3. #13803
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    LOL! I like it. Can't wait to see the reaction.

  4. #13804
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherLove View Post
    Sin Kwang The, Hiang Kwang The and Wong Kiew Kit have the "REAL SHAOLIN"! Everything else is a weakened verson as it has evolved in mainland China.
    Most on this forum wouldn't know or be able to accept the truth if it walked up and bit you right on your huckleberry.
    You forgot about Doo Wai and USSD.

  5. #13805
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherLove View Post
    I didn't forget…I was talking about the Shaolin Real Deal.
    Yeah, it was a joke because I assumed you were joking, too.

  6. #13806
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    I think this thread could use some gaying up.

    so...




    and




    and of course

    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #13807
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherLove View Post
    I give up! I have tried a couple of times to re-stoke the fire here but I feel like I'm trying to burn wet wood. Reading this thread (yeah I actually read every post) has been great fun and often even informative…but I think both sides of the argument are resigned to let it die. So Goodbye Old Friend!
    You give up?
    with only 13 tries?

    You are NOT worthy.
    Leave your 6 red stripe yellow sash on the table by the door as you LEAVE!!!


    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #13808
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    i love how a lot of the times we all talk bad about this or that art, really run it down, and then we find a lot of times people who have material from each others arts.. i love it
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  9. #13809
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    Quote Originally Posted by shen ku View Post
    I asked about using your skills because i am always using mine in one way or another.. but i find its not often that i use actual fighting skills?? I always find it interesting that most people don't talk about the "other" benefits of training or should i say quality training , depending on what that means to you.lol..

    Most people if they just watch what they do and where they go hardly ever need to fight... i have had to use some skills on the job but i work in the psych field so you just never know how some people will react... but?? as for my daily life any time i have ever had to do anything it was just a little something when someone was just curious about training ,, and most of the time the became some form of a student after wards
    Agreed. Tai Chi, Pakua, and just plain ol' exercise are what I'm after these days. They keep my head on straight. At times I'm only into fighting techniques, and at others I just want to keep in shape and work out. MA has that flexibility.

    Also, I've always had an appreciation for Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu (I'm not big on Buddhist Philosophy [It's too puritanical]). Anyways, I find that the anarchist strain of thought in Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu fits my own political-economic viewpoint pretty well--"Laissez Faire, Laissez Passer." I find that the shallow Chuck Norris mentality of self-control ("I'll let that one pass because I'd kill you if I actually punched you") is pretty lame. Self-control is knowing when to let something stupid fly by, and not letting it fly by if it's a matter of principle. Same goes for MA. If someone throws out a ridiculous application or private-MA-fantasy-"move," it's better just to politely point out some of the ridiculous assumptions that this would-be Chuck Norris has made, and then let it go at that.

    Not that I'm looking for justification of ideas through martial arts or anything. It's just a nice blend of mental exercises and physical exercises. Western exercise routines are pure body. You get results, you build a strong base, and you often develop a kind of work ethic to keep up with your routine, but you don't really get mental benefits from that other than egoism. Doing Tai Chi every day really helps you shrug off little things and avoid bickering. I remember that when I used to work out in gyms during college, I was building up a strong base, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it. LOL.

    Seems like 90% of the health crap that people nitpick over in gyms is codeword for: "I need to stay sexy so I can get laid." After a while, you realize that "fit" only means "sexy." Many "fit" people are not model-sexy. (Or am I just justifying my unsexiness? LOL.....)

    Ask a gym nut why he stays in shape, and he'll tell you that it's because he needs to stay in shape because it's healthy, etc. It's certainly not wrong, but it's begging the question.

  10. #13810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brule View Post
    Forgive me for not reading the 880 pages, but Is Shaolin-Do for real?
    What is real shaolin?

    Is it

    1) The gymnastics taught by Communist-Party-appointed monks who practice whatever it is that they do (and it is impressive, even if it isn't Shaolin, and even if it is Communist-appointed)?

    2) The "shaolin-ness" of the stuff "underneath" the gymnastics taught at the temple today?

    3) Anything that's not Shaolin Do?

    4) One of the billion branches of Shaolin taught by whoever-and-his-grandfather-wannabe-shaolin-and-therefore-fudged-his-family-tree-sometime-in-the-indiscriminate-past? (And SD has no monopoly on this one...LOL...)

    5) What you see in the movies?

    6) The most devastating MA in existence?


    The "real" Shaolin is a little like God, but I don't belive in God. Everybody claims to have God, but nobody else has a God quite like their own "original" God---the REAL GOD. Maybe a couple of lineages here and there have bits and pieces of "God" in their Shaolin, or maybe even whole sequences of "God" moves. These "God" moves are the most devastating moves in existence. Even worse: these "God" moves can create even more devastating moves from the non-fabrics of perpetual nonexistence if you just believe in their massively destructive power. Shaolin can create, and Shaolin can destroy. There is only one caveat, and I quote Shaolin 3:16--"Thou shalt have no other Gods before Shaolin. Whoseover believeth in Shaolin shall not perish, but have bragging rights over the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN LINEAGE everlasting."

    Which is the "original" lineage?

    I don't know. Some people think that if you can just find a couple of records somewhere that some nincompoop in the past wrote down, taking dictation from his Master/Chief/Abbot/Pope/King/Emperor/President (surely there is a Shaolin President somewhere, and if there isn't, I'm running for it next year), then de facto we have proof of it.

    Maybe it's because I do research for a living and teach Logic, Grammar, and critical thinking to college students that I just don't have much respect for the theological strain in Shaolin "God"-olatry. It's like Bible-thumping.

    Same big egos. Same stories. Same miracles. Same cult of saints (unless you're a Protestant, in which case you have the cult of historicist interpretation of scripture).

  11. #13811
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    There isn't a big divide between the two, and I think they make fine comparisons because lineages are taken on faith--whatever anyone might say otherwise.

    Genealogies function on the same premise. I've traced my family tree back through the Plantagenets to the mythical founder of Rome, Troy, etc., and even back to Adam (following the old royalist geneaologies used to legitimate the conquests of William the Conqueror and every jacknut tyrant of the past). You can justify anything with a flick of the pen. Hell, there are two different geneaologies between two gospels for Christ--one supposedly through Mary, and the other through Joseph (and I'm sure you can see the irony in the latter). This doesn't stop people from belieiving in Christ's divinity, or even in the consistency of hte Gospels, or the contradictory geneaologies, etc. People will usually justify what they believe in the present by "interpreting" what was written in the past in a way that will justify what they believe in the present.

    If we must believe in the historical foundations of monuments, handwritten records, etc., then SD was recognized as "officially" Shaolin when it erected its stone tablet outside of the temple. Call it what you will--if the world were hit by a nuclear holocaust (or a Cultural Revolution), wiping out 90% of humankind, in addition to many written historical records, future generations would presume that Sin Kwang The' was teh covenant bearer of the REAL Shaolin.

    Even natural scientists do this with regularity. It's human nature. Read "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn. Or, look at the "liberal agenda" for global warming (not to say that global warming isn't happening, just that the anthropogenic CO2"interpretation" is doomsday prophecying on par with any Biblical shenanigan). Plus, the fact that the Global Warming Doomsday caught on with socialists begging for the destruction of freedom...or capitalism...ought to have set off warning alarms for any clear-headed individual.

    As for Shaolin-Do, there are a couple of things to believe. Thomas Sowell, the famous economist, often writes about "middleman" minorities like the Jews or the Chinese in southeast Asia. These "middleman" minorities run in tight family circles, guarding their business secrets, promoting impeccable work ethics through education, work, and business. And in turn, they get discriminated against at every turn by other majorities, or even other minorities. I have no doubt that there was something like this in Indonesia, based on research I did in scholarly journals several years ago--it was a famous hotspot of anti-Chinese intervention (especially in "licensing" and taxation). The Chinese in Southeast Asia kept to themselves, like Jews in diaspora, and were persecuted for that. No doubt the SD founders were in cultural and political isolation and kept things secretive.

    As for the "wookie" bit, or Ie Chang Ming's "Shaolin resume"--those are stories and articles of faith. You either believe them or you don't. I enjoy them as stories, but nothing more. They may have kernels of truth, but I don't trouble myself with them. Hell, my grandmother once told me that she rode a horse to France (from Detroit). I enjoyed the story, but I didn't believe it.

    I personally think that most CMA's are living out Star Wars fantasies when in comes to "the really real REALIST SHAOLIN" in history. SD just provided the Wookie.

    As for the "Gi" controversy, I've never trained in one inside SD. I have trained in one in both BJJ and Judo. The "Gi" is superior for any hand to hand combat. It provides more padding for body shots, it doesn't rip and tear when you get into grappling, and it holds out better in the long run. I've had to get my SD shirt, which is Chinese-style, retailored 3 times for seam tears in a single year span. It's a pain in the ass, and I could only wish that we trained in Gi's down here.

    Silk pajamas are for forms and light training. Gi's are for throwing, sweeping, grappling, wrestling, and even punching and kicking.


    Now, all of that aside (which is just History, fashion, or Street-Cred), what, then, is REAL Shaolin?

    Real Shaolin is "God."

    God has many children.
    God has infinite creative powers.
    God justifies all fake Shaolin lineages, even though all fake Shaolin lineages are the only things justifying God.
    God is almighty.
    God either wears a saffron robe or a Japanese Gi.
    God is a communist-appointed Lord of the Dance.

    Take your pick. All of the Shaolin-ness debates have one thing in common--the 1,000 year-old mystique. But there is no 1,000 year-old "move." There's the "move" I did three seconds ago, and then there's the "1,000 year-old mystique."

  12. #13812
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    The best advice to give to any MA practitioner is as follows:

    Find the best teacher that you can find. Find one who challenges your views, has an open mind, and is excellent at his craft. "Styles" don't matter in these considerations. Find a school that embodies these traits, and which treats its students with respect. Also, there is no objective "value" in a teacher. It's a subjective valuation in your own mind, based on your own needs as a student.

    A good teacher at a bad school is not enought to offset the "bad school" bit, just as a "good school" with likeable classmates and hardworking assistants is not enough to offset a bad teacher. I once had a great BJJ teacher with extensive MMA experience, but he was lazy as a teacher, ran a shoddy school, and occasionally didn't show up for instruction. Great practitioner + Bad teacher + Bad business ethic = Shoddy instruction.

    I found both a good teacher and a good school with my Shaolin-Tao/Do teacher, but I wouldn't have stuck around with some other teachers. I certainly didn't stick with many non-SD teachers because of the schools themselves, the mentalities of their assistants, or the egos of the teachers. My current teacher is, hands-down, the best that I've found for my mindset, goals, standards, etc.

    Nobody has a monopoly on quality MA. And a golden lineage cannot hide "Fools Gold" MA techniques.

    Studying MA isn't like parroting what your teachers say. Half of the time, it's questioning what they say, why they say it, and judging whether it has any validity. Sometimes it has no validity, and sometimes it lacks validity for three years--and then WHAM, it suddenly has all the validity in the world.

  13. #13813
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    well...... someone had some free time????
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  14. #13814
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    SW,

    I truly enjoyed that, really.

    Frank

  15. #13815
    Quote Originally Posted by OldandUsed View Post
    SW,

    I truly enjoyed that, really.

    Frank
    Ditto! Well said.

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