Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Jimbo]

That's right. I'm quoting myself, because you need to hear it twice

The fact that your masters had their (possessive pronoun) school means something

There's a good chance your lineage would be nothing (it wouldn't exist) without the west. It'd have remained underground until it was finally decided that is was buried---finito, dead, gone, caput

Actually, CLF (and many other systems) had also spread to and flourished in countries/places like The Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc., before Mao took over China.

[hskwarrior]

Actually, CLF (and many other systems) had also spread to and flourished in countries/places like The Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc., before Mao took over China.

he's (SW) funny. he acts like he knows something. haha

[Rover]

Guys,please don't cool off,and feel free to enjoy a photo of another american gong fu fighter. (representetive photo)

ps : Don't forget to pay attention to that glare in his eyes what as a result of saving tcma in the name of glorious amurica <3

[Faux Newbie]

Most of the skilled kung fu practitioners are in China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. Some are in the West, but it will probably never be most, because it's Chinese martial arts, and a majority of its practitioners are going to be Chinese. Simple logistics.

People who universalize the effect of the Cultural Revolution in China are a bit behind the times. It's a lot easier to find good kung fu in China, it's simple logistics, and lots of groups kept their styles alive. The whole "all the good kung fu teachers left the mainland" was popularized by kung fu people from Taiwan and Hong Kong, it''s just smack talk and competition. In the modern era, it doesn't even apply. Some lines may have died out, but it seems now that a great many thought to be gone actually held on in some areas.

Look at Chen style. Lots of people doing it are doing the traditional set, not the wushu set.

Additionally, the idea that all the good teachers left assumes a lot about their economic resources during those times, and their willingness to leave their homeland.

The U.S., as a kung fu community, has generally been following the trends set in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. Coincidentally, the U.S. had the same forms craze as China, but for capitalist reasons. In both regions, there are groups and individuals who train beyond form, but there will always be more of them in China.

[nautavac]

This may have been touched in in this monster of a thread, but since the deposition has anyone spoken with GM Sin about these issues? I am also interested in the school in Indonesia, has anyone ever contacted GGM Ie's old school in Indonesia to merely ask about Sin The? Just wandering.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This may have been touched in in this monster of a thread, but since the deposition has anyone spoken with GM Sin about these issues? I am also interested in the school in Indonesia, has anyone ever contacted GGM Ie's old school in Indonesia to merely ask about Sin The? Just wandering.

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

[nautavac]

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

Thank you for your reply, Could I pm you, I have more questions? about some of the material. BTW when I mentioned asking Sin about his take on things I had not considered your point "Now there's just the art..." It would still be interesting to know if the Indonesia school was still in operation and what they thought of SD. It is interesting as well what GM Hiang has listed on his website, and the curriculum is even more interesting (at least to me) in terms of the material. Anyhow, thankyou for the reply. ad augusta per angusta

[One student]

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

I'd like more information on what is "puter kepala," but I'm not sure GMS would disagree with you on some of this "kun tao" description. He was once personally translating some of the text on those famous paintings on the wall in his School, and translated some of the words of the arts being demonstrated or related in the painting as specifically "kun tao." Some people might think that is a bad thing, but he apparently did not. Maybe the better, less confrontational question for one who is closer to him would be, what relationship does the "kun tao" as it is known in Indonesia have to Shaolin Do?

[nautavac]

I wander if it would be possible to add a link to any specific kun tao vid that has the same techs as SD in any form, or at least looks very similar? I know that i am probably the only one here still interested but it would not be too far fetched for some of the chinese immigrants specialty styles to have been influenced by the developing kun tao or vice versa.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wander if it would be possible to add a link to any specific kun tao vid that has the same techs as SD in any form, or at least looks very similar? I know that i am probably the only one here still interested but it would not be too far fetched for some of the chinese immigrants specialty styles to have been influenced by the developing kun tao or vice versa.

That's not all too easy. Kuntao forms and Silat forms are a lot different than CMA (huas, seven star mantis, etc), and they're diverse. I'd say step one ( and this has always been my primary critique of sd's chinna) is to learn chinna as a method of attack, not defense. Always grab, and ignore anyone who says otherwise. As for kuntao techniques , definitely look at throws, etc. I don't know that Joseph Simonet is a particularly good example of kuntao, but his serak is 99% related to what it learned in the first 5 or so jurus. I think I saw a video of him demonstrating puter kepala when I googled it a moment ago to look for YouTube links. Now, all martial arts have specific likenesses---there are only so many ways to sweep someone--so it doesn't matter which one you learn. It's all about setup and entry. For puter kepala, for instance, you need a strong attack to set it up---drive your forearm into his throat from a clinch, attack with an elbow, etc. so, look at the link below. See the bird clear ( block opponents right lead) , the elbow counter, the wrap (finger thrust), and the flourish (throw). The broken leg stance puts you in position to 1) choke him out, or (2) apply arm lock by turning his chin away with your left hand while breakin his arm across your midsection with the leverage of your right arm. The form ends with a clear, elbow and finger jab and then a backwards step and slanting fly motion. This is puter kepala with a neck break. Do the throw, but before it gets too far, stop controlling the arm rotation and focus on the neck. Bird 2 is all about catching an arm and pulling, either from a grab or clinch. The hop is just to throw your weight. Bird 3 three has a nastier puter kepala in it. A little experimenting reveals it quickly

http://youtu.be/YUzVV2Wqbtk

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sd guys often try to find the missing link (get it? Lol) between ggm sktj and GM the, but it's not out there. GM the taught 3 or so forms from seven star mantis that I have seen and still practice. They're almost carbon copies of the original 7 star stuff. But he tweaked them here and there, and not necessarily out of ignorance. But he also added dumb stuff here and there. For instance, the baibyuan tou Tao (stp) he taught has two roundhouses at the middle of the form--low then high. There's no need for the first one, and it breaks the form's rhythm. He added it for a dumb reason---to differentiate the form as he practiced and taught it (wherever he got it from) from 7 star.; or, perhaps to liken it to the crappy, IMO, tang lang chien he teaches. I took it back out. It was unnecessary and awkward.

Sd forms are not conditioning. I can tell u that. Yeah, they're hard, but that's because you have to find their flow, and you can only do that after you find their techniques by drilling them

[Shaolin Wookie]

But as for nomenclature, if I'm talking sd to people , I always say that I study kuntao--whther it's sd or Ingram, or suwanda Silat--and CMA . I think sd deserves some credit for its Indonesian root where it actually applies, and credit for its Chinese forms--however they were obtained.

[nautavac]

Kuntao in Southeast Asia

By Mark V. Wiley and Alexander L. Co

"The art of kuntao is at once fascinating and largely misunder- stood. Developed along China's southernmost coastal province of Fukien, kuntao is a Hokkien dialect term used to describe any number of indigenous Chineese martial arts. Confusion over the classification of kuntao among other Chinese and Southeast Asian martial arts arises as the term is inadequately definable and largely generic. In fact, there is no standard Chinese ideogram for the word. Thus, kuntao's definition and the arts it encompasses are left to open interpretation.
On a basic levet a definition for kuntao would find kun meaning "fist" and tao meaning "way." Thus, kuntao would simply mean the "way of the fist." This term, much like karate, kempo, and chuan fa, is merely a different language for the same thing- i.e., the art of empty-hand combat."

So then, after watching some of the techs that wookie was referencing, would it be a misnomer to connect GGM IE AND GM SIN as well as the bandung school as being an off shoot of kuntao found in this area of China? The alleged lineage aside that is. Could it possible that as Ie traveled to indonesia several of his techs were changed according to what he experienced? Once in bandung would it be possible to follow the immediate surrounding culture with respect to the school itself (uniforms, terminology, etc), in order to attract more students in that area? I am probably wrong here but to me it just seems reasonable. You folks have much more experience with MA than i do, and i do respect that (and envy you all), it just seems that while most of sins claims seem fantastic and not reliable, that he did learn something in bandung alongside Hiang who keeps the same curriculum aside from the Tai peng portion, and Sin may include those as well, idk. Just some ramblings from someone who has a habit of practicing strikes, stances, combos, hitting harder and harder objects, and going through home brewed Jow medicine as though it were skin lotion from bath and body. FWIWIMO any thoughts?

[nautavac]

i forgot ask, is there any real connection between the shaolin temple gungfu and the kuntao along the southern most coastal region of china? Just wandering. Thanx in advance for any opinions or info, i truly do value the insights of everyone on here, (at least to a point).

[Shaolin Wookie]

So then, after watching some of the techs that wookie was referencing, would it be a misnomer to connect GGM IE AND GM SIN as well as the bandung school as being an off shoot of kuntao found in this area of China? The alleged lineage aside that is. Could it possible that as Ie traveled to indonesia several of his techs were changed according to what he experienced? Once in bandung would it be possible to follow the immediate surrounding culture with respect to the school itself (uniforms, terminology, etc), in order to attract more students in that area? I am probably wrong here but to me it just seems reasonable. You folks have much more experience with MA than i do, and i do respect that (and envy you all), it just seems that while most of sins claims seem fantastic and not reliable, that he did learn something in bandung alongside Hiang who keeps the same curriculum aside from the Tai peng portion, and Sin may include those as well, idk. Just some ramblings from someone who has a habit of practicing strikes, stances, combos, hitting harder and harder objects, and going through home brewed Jow medicine as though it were skin lotion from bath and body. FWIWIMO any thoughts?

Yes and no. It's a Chinese-indies art. A Chinese community in Indonesia. Consider Ching yen and what we know about it---Liu us peng, tad djie, and whoever else taught there. What are their backgrounds and who taught what? We don't know precisely.--we have some generalities But technique wise, sd probably, IMO, has much Indonesian influence. Students also shape curricula. A guy versed in kuntao/Silat could have changed the school by challenging prevailing CMA perceptions. We know ggm ie was an opium addict and was coaxed out of addiction by his training brothers---who was in charge then? Certainly not ggm ie. so who knows how much influence there was?

So it doesn't matter what sd is, in a wAy. I don't care much anymore. I like drilling and techniques, and I'll study anything. But I don't want more forms. I just want better use of em.

Btw--proper understanding of sd, I think, comes from mastery of chinna. Your forms are all throwing and grabbing. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Lol. Unless he's really good