View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #10441
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    I have been to his school it is 5 miles from where I live. He does not teach anything even close to SD unless you call a horse stance and a straight punch SD. Here is what occured. He was training under Master Mullins he opened another SD school then told his students he was THE Master and GM The and EM Mullins were dead. He was taken to court for teaching CR material and told to stop . He is a money maker period; that is where these rumors of it is just for money are taken from , or part of it. Still why teach something or part of something. I feel the introduction of a new form will challenge the body in new and diverse ways. Those who stop at what they like or are good at are in my opinion resting on their haunches and not truly challenging themselves or their minds to grow. Can one use the forms for combat ? maybe not but in doing the form you train a concept say 1000 times and a punch or strike 5000 times then you will be a better tactician and fighter for it. As far as testing I dont care much for testing either but who am I to judge. I have done pre testing and I keep in mind why the person is there , fitness , anger mgmnt, or to loearn to fight or the art itself. I use that as a basis of passing or not passing a test And there ability in the form area is also involved. Why be like Jethro and quit at 6th grade when you can continue and get your Doctorate? Happy Thanksgiving all KC
    Last edited by kwaichang; 11-27-2008 at 08:08 AM.
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  2. #10442
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ??
    Um, yeah . If you can't do something then you shouldn't be "promoted" to a level that required that something . This is why I'm thankful I don't train in a system with "levels" or "grades".
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

  3. #10443
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    I think the problem in this logic is the assumption that to advance in a skill (not necessarily rank) you have to be able to perform more complex or difficult physical tasks. A form, if trained properly, requires you to understand the principles of that forms footwork, strategy, logic--the foundation of the idea behind it. The physical techniques of a form are only a pre-arranged expression of those ideas--but they are not the foundation of the style itself (which is why simply doing all of the movements of a style's form doesn't mean that you are doing the style itself).

    If a form has certain physical movement (such as the example of falling into a split) then why is that move an expressions of the underlying principals of the style. Is it the split that is the most important element, or the evasive principle it represents. If one can do a form and understand its principals then, it isn't as important that every move be perfect as long as their expression of the style shows an understanding of the fundamentals and an ability to make those fundamentals work for you (whether or not you can still physically do every technique in a form).
    Last edited by Judge Pen; 11-28-2008 at 08:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #10444
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    It depends on what the requirement was...

    Its one thing if such and such move is simply an expression of a principle. Then yeah if the principle can be executed by a practitioner, I suppose that would be satisfactory.

    But on another end what if such and such move is not based on principle, technique or any of that? Maybe said move is simply a mark of physical achievement. Since fighting is a physical act requiring physical conditioning to perform, its only logical that a successful training plan would require certain benchmarks to be met (full on splits would be extreme, but since that move was brought up). So...if the plan required a certain physical mark to be met in order for advancement; in that light then no, they should not be promoted.

    This is why forms are a poor way of judging a martial artist.

  5. #10445
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    ... expressions of the underlying principals of the style ...
    Sure, I get your point. But I would expect the ability to execute something to be strongly related to correct expression of the principals in general i.e. someone who worked harder would usually achieve both. Again, glad my style doesn't involve splits or acrobatics.
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

  6. #10446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    Um, yeah . If you can't do something then you shouldn't be "promoted" to a level that required that something . This is why I'm thankful I don't train in a system with "levels" or "grades".
    I wonder, should all tests be set up to where its 100% to pass?

    Speaking from a teachers point of view, I can see some merit in comments made but in my opinion, a student should be promoted or failed based on what he/she has learned from the material. When I test a student, while I do look to see that the forms are done correctly, I am more interested in seeing that the student learned the concepts contained in said forms.

    In our BB ranks, the student must learn 10 forms. Conservatively, each has about 50 moves so thats 500 moves they must learn. Say they can't do the splits (given example) but can do the rest of the moves with some level of proficiency. By your statement, even though they made a 99.5%, they should not be promoted.
    "Pain heals, chicks dig scars..Glory lasts forever"......

  7. #10447
    Yeah, I dunno. I guess I can't really relate since lately and for the foreseeable future I spend 99% of my time on what you might call 5 moves. And recently I've spent a large portion of that 99% on 1 move. So I don't really have a basis for comparison. When you put it in the context of 500 moves, I guess 1 wrong move is less relevant.

    However, the way your system works doesn't that mean a student will most likely go on to new stuff after that grading and therefore never learn the wrong move correctly? And is it possible that one day they'll be in a position of responsibility and be required to teach the moves that they don't train any more, couldn't do in the first place and most likely can't do? How does that work? I guess that's the good thing about teaching - it exposes deficiencies in both the student and the teacher and forces both to improve themselves.

    It's another argument altogether whether the splits is a worthwhile move. JP's example of using it as an evasion techique made me smile. Wasn't that in some corny 80s movie? Props to those who can do the splits but it's not something I can do or aspire to do. Ouch, brings tears to my eyes.
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

  8. #10448
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    The point is not whether you can do the splits but if it is in the form and you cant do it should you fail; not all moves have direct application but at times can be used to promote an idea or concept or physical ability. Drunken forms are full of such moves,what do they teach I trhink some moves promote strength some flexibility and some technique for fighting, But if you cant do one should you fail ?? Take weight lifting for example start with 10# 1 set of 15 reps when you can do it you go on and on if you cant say curl 30# should you stop trying to work out or keep trying ?? The forms that have the splits for ex. are used in my opinion to promote dynamic flexibility which from an athletic point of view , is used every time you kick KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  9. #10449
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    Do you think James Brown used the splits in the 50s as a self defense application? I just can't see where it could be used for application in a real fight or attack. As far as flexibility in warm ups, I can see it as a positive thing to stretch the ligaments, etc. Otherwise, I believe it would be dangerous for the person doing it especially in a self defense situation.

  10. #10450
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    The forms that have the splits for ex. are used in my opinion to promote dynamic flexibility which from an athletic point of view , is used every time you kick KC
    The key is dynamic flexibility , and kicking is an application not all apps are blatant and not all moves clear KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post

    However, the way your system works doesn't that mean a student will most likely go on to new stuff after that grading and therefore never learn the wrong move correctly? And is it possible that one day they'll be in a position of responsibility and be required to teach the moves that they don't train any more, couldn't do in the first place and most likely can't do? How does that work? I guess that's the good thing about teaching - it exposes deficiencies in both the student and the teacher and forces both to improve themselves.
    that is not how our system works. We test over all of our material every time we test. unless there is an actual physical impairment (like funny shaped hips or arthritis or whatever) by the third time testing through most people can achieve, for example, the splits. or at least within 4-6 inches of the full splits which, in my opinion, works just as well.


    a lot of people harp on us about our number of forms. In truth though we practice all of our material in order to advance. I have seen 3rd blacks fail a pretest over their lower belt material. They were awesome on their actual advancement material but could not make it through the lower level stuff. so they failed. We have to show good memory and (at each increasing level of advancement) we have to show a better and better understanding and application of the material we have already seen.

  12. #10452
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    Applications of splits:

    I used that example because it was brought up earlier as one of the techniques that are sometimes in forms that not everyone can do. I can't do them. In all actuallity, I doubt there's really any solid applciation to the move, but the range of motion promotes better martial ability over-all so forcing one to aspire to a split is a great way to promote better martial ability. But since it was the technique used, I tried to think of common "applications" for them.

    Actually, the application in Blood Sport always comes to mind also (leg being caught and pulled and the split allows one to maintain some control in a disadvantaged position).

    But KC's point is true, many parts of forms are more for conditioning and physical training and do not have very practical applications in a direct fighting sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  13. #10453
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    I'll say this about SD too. You are never supposed to stop doing forms just because you have tested over them. When I tested for yellow, I could do all the techniques and I understood the basic applications, but it took me years to unlock some of the more subtleties to the most basic of forms. That only comes with time.

    Which is why I understand the criticism as well. With so many forms, how is there time to really learn any of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #10454
    Quote Originally Posted by kungfujunky View Post
    that is not how our system works. We test over all of our material every time we test.

    a lot of people harp on us about our number of forms. In truth though we practice all of our material in order to advance. I have seen 3rd blacks fail a pretest over their lower belt material. They were awesome on their actual advancement material but could not make it through the lower level stuff. so they failed. We have to show good memory and (at each increasing level of advancement) we have to show a better and better understanding and application of the material we have already seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    I'll say this about SD too. You are never supposed to stop doing forms just because you have tested over them. When I tested for yellow, I could do all the techniques and I understood the basic applications, but it took me years to unlock some of the more subtleties to the most basic of forms. That only comes with time.
    I've misunderstood then. I always got the impression (from this thread and others) that once something was graded students had a tendency to move onto the next thing and never do it again.
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

  15. #10455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I've misunderstood then. I always got the impression (from this thread and others) that once something was graded students had a tendency to move onto the next thing and never do it again.
    That depends on the student doesn't it. Granted there are some forms that I do more than others and some forms (seminars etc.) that I don't find useful for me that I practice less. Usually, a structured class begins with basic warm ups and then a forms session (for cardio and for review) usually up through at least 3rd brown to 1st black. That way, at least once a week you review all of the foundational material in a class setting with the teacher watching.

    Granted this can vary from school to school, but its been my experience in the classes I've participated in.

    Right now, since I have not been able to participate in a structued class, I've culled down my forms review into the material up to first black and approx 12 other forms that I find useful and/or fun and which is a good cross section of the material of SD outside of the fundamentals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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