Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MonkeySlap Too]

JP- you come across as non-judgemental either way. Your attitude will help you find the useful in what you do. Very hard to maintain this when under such intense group pressure. You must be a lawyer or something...

[Golden Tiger]

Here's a place to start - when you say 'my Xing-Yi' are you referring to a form? Or all the nei gong, wei gong, two-man work, equipment work, and underlying principles that make it work? Do your teachers have any idea of what i'm talking about?

I do........

[MonkeySlap Too]

Forgive me for being sceptical, but there is an overwhelming amount of evidence in regards to SD, that this would be unlikely.

But if we ever get to meet, feell free too prove me wrong - before we start drinking beer

[Radhnoti]

GT, I'd love it if you'd PM me the name of someone I could contact with honest straight-forward questions. ANYTIME I've gone up with history questions or my instructor approached a higher up with a history question you'd think we were making disrespectful statements or questioning authority. I know an instructor ranked higher than MY instructor who got his nerve up and asked GM Sin about the 900+ forms thing, when I asked him what happened he answered simply, "I got in trouble for mentioning it." If we post questions here would you pass them along and get an answer for us?
I know you've seen the websites with Tai Chi 24 listed as coming from a specific temple...and looking just now at the Texas school's website shows me that they still list our short forms as "Tan family leg techniques"...tan tui. My research indicates that our short forms are derivative of (not looking at notes here, so I could be slightly off) 108 steps of the lohan or something. It's ended up being similar to tan tui, but it's not...am I wrong here or is the official website of a guy who's been an SD master for as long as I've been a student? I don't think John Q Public would know what tan family leg techniques are either...so why not list them as short lohan forms or some such?
GT - "I know of many that are still active but have maintained their same rank for years that are truly respected and have even been promoted because of their insight and understanding of what they are teaching."
My instructor was a first black when he started, his then instructor told him he'd better start pursuing rank if he didn't want some ex-student coming along and asking for the right to teach in his town. I'm not saying this without doubt would have happened, just that this was the only reason my instructor ever pursued further rank...and his instructor at the time thought it was a definite possibility.
GT - "As for telling an instructor that he is expected to be there, I would have to agree."
He was told to bring himself AND his students. As a side note, he's not even close to raking in big bucks. Last summer we trained without any electicity through a part of the summer, and the phone is disconnected so often we started using it as a joke.
Teacher - "Where were you last class?"
Us - "I tried to call, but couldn't get through for some reason..."
He's since had to give up the rental space and teaches from a student's garage. He's always had a lot of students, but half of them are not paying or not paying the full fee since their families just can't swing it. He ends up giving equipment away to help kids out, let them practice at home, etc. So, it's really not possible for him to "take the fees out of their tuition" when ends just aren't meeting for the school.
The same kind of pressures have been applied for him to get students to join the SDA. "Are you even TRYING to get them to join? You KNOW it's to help out GM Sin." He's a member, he mentions it from time to time, but doesn't try to "hard sell" it...and that fact IS held against him.
We've NEVER had any issues with GM Sin. Nicest guy you'd ever meet. He told us we should all wear shoes, so our knees wouldn't start aching. (Notice that he's always wearing them.) And he implied that he didn't care if we dropped the gi to just T-shirts since we were training in the heat of summer with no air conditioning. He didn't even care if the kids TESTED that way, which seemed great to us...not having to ask the students to shell out for a uniform. I don't think I have to tell you how those innovations went over with his more immediate superiors.

I have no doubt that my instructor would not want me throwing all this out on a public forum, but I'm too stubborn to go back now and erase stuff that I feel to be true.

[Ralphie]

System of Command! It amazes me that people in this country still treat things such as martial arts like someone from a superstitious 3rd world society would. These discussions of SD remind me of the Achebe book/Yates poem "Things Fall Apart". There are cracks in the wall, SD "masters". I laugh and cringe everytime I hear the old "don't question the master" crap that SD spews. IMO these type of MA paradigms are crumbling quickly. It's time to enter the 21st century, even Kentucky.

[The Willow Sword]

I agree with Ralphie here and his above post. hehe and being A kentuckian livin in texas i will still agree that Kentucky needs to evolve out of its current mentality.

as for the "dont question the masters" comment. Most people are afraid to even go up and talk to a "master" let alone actually ask questions about forms and lineage and such. I will say this right now that it is NOT being disrespectful to ask questions about what you are initially PAYING to learn and be a part of. I know it may sound a tad shallow to bring up the money situation with regards to Martial arts,,But you ARE paying for services rendered arent you? or contributing a kind of tribute so that there can be a viable exchange from one hand to another.

since we can use the old addage that "our tax dollars go to this and that" i would maintain that my hard earned money goes to support a school and organization and if i have some questions regarding what i am paying for then i expect to get honest and above all CIVIL answers to my questions.

but i guess this has reduced me to less than slime now bringing up "money"

I was afraid to ask Sin The' about the history and lineage and about the picture because i was fearful that either he would get p!ssed off and crack my head open,,OR if Bill Leonard was in the vicinity HE would do it for him(and i know about Bill Leonards temper in the past, i have heard some interesting stories).

Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Wow, Rad...that was kind of hard to read but will try.

I know an instructor ranked higher than MY instructor who got his nerve up and asked GM Sin about the 900+ forms thing, when I asked him what happened he answered simply, "I got in trouble for mentioning it." If we post questions here would you pass them along and get an answer for us?

Sure.

Plus, what is all this "getting up your nerve" stuff and TWS's "afraid" bs? Tell me one time that you have ever seen Master Sin get upset? Tell me one time that you have even seen Master Bill get upset(which is more likely, true)? I have had conversations with Master Sin where we talked about anything but MA, fussed and discussed on issues and never got my head cracked open.

Most people are afraid to even go up and talk to a "master" let alone actually ask questions about forms and lineage and such.

Again, this seems to be a personal problem. Most in that position would be more than happy to talk to anyone on just about anything.


The Tai Chi 24 and Tan tui thing......not sure where that came from. I was in the first class that was taught 24 and as I have said before, Master Sin told us exactly where and when it came to be which I have already tallked about before. Tan Tui.......I always heard that it was the 108 forms condensed to 30 because of repitition of moves.

We've NEVER had any issues with GM Sin.

So who is it you are having issues with? And if your instructor is having issues at all, have him drop me an email.

The same kind of pressures have been applied for him to get students to join the SDA. "Are you even TRYING to get them to join? You KNOW it's to help out GM Sin." He's a member, he mentions it from time to time, but doesn't try to "hard sell" it...and that fact IS held against him.

NO ONE has ever been forced to join the SDA. If you check out the SD website, you will see that more schools than not aren't members. Yes, they would like to get everyone to join but if you didn't, no big deal. If you attend seminars and tournaments and such, by all means join to save cash but if not. don't. As for it being held against him, I would like to know by who? I was a teacher for a lot of years pre and post SDA and eventhough I joined, a lot of my students (poor central Ky farm kids) didn't. Not once was it ever mentioned other than a letter from Master Sin or the SDA telling how it was going. So again, if in a PM if you have to, tell me who!



Welcome back Ralphie.......long time no see. you were greatly missed.

[Ralphie]

Hello GT, I've been here, but I've been really nice. A while back, I told another guy from Tn. that I would be, so...Anyway, hope you're doing well, GT.

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks Ralphie, life has been pretty good lately.

Boy, you must really owe that guy in Tn. to be able to keep that keyboard quiet. What, does he have pictures of you in a compromised situation or something involving farm animals or some mobsters wife? j/k

[The Willow Sword]

The times i have talked to Sin The' yes he has been very polite and cordial and such. but what i am referring to is actually confronting him(in a civil manner) about the lineage and the picture of sukong (li baoshu). If one were to ask Him something like
" Gm Sin? I have heard alot of rumors and talk about our lineage and history and of the actual picture of Gm Su kong. Where was that picture taken and who took it? the rumors are that this is a picture of a person who was in the circus and some say that they have seen this picture in an old guiness book of records featuring circus freaks."

Now i just wonder what the response would be. Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

i would be very interested to know what he does say and how he reacts to the question.

Peace,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

The times i have talked to Sin The' yes he has been very polite and cordial and such. but what i am referring to is actually confronting him(in a civil manner) about the lineage and the picture of sukong (li baoshu). If one were to ask Him something like
" Gm Sin? I have heard alot of rumors and talk about our lineage and history and of the actual picture of Gm Su kong. Where was that picture taken and who took it? the rumors are that this is a picture of a person who was in the circus and some say that they have seen this picture in an old guiness book of records featuring circus freaks."

Now i just wonder what the response would be. Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

i would be very interested to know what he does say and how he reacts to the question.

Peace,,,TWS

I could tell you what he would probably say. He probably doesn't know as the picture and story of Su Kong was passed down by GM Ie. 3 options:
1. It's a true story;
2. It's false and Ie maded it up (in which case GM Sin honestly wouldn't know the difference); or
3. GM Sin The made it up.

It either case, he would answer the same way. He probably doesn't really know.

[Golden Tiger]

Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

He's coming in this week I think, I'll see what I can do for you TWS.

[MonkeySlap Too]

My experience with Indo teachers is such that you may never get a good answer... that is not a slam, just an observation of dealing with the culture!

The thing to do would be to find those other students of Ie Chang, and talk with them. Again, they may or may not corraborate the story, may not 'have' the story if they were outside 'the door' of Ie Changs school, but the CAN corrobrate what was taught... wha the The' brothers were like, how they interralated with other arts, etc.

THAT would be a constructive and interesting way to learn about the recent history of your style.

But getting a straight answer from an Indo? Especially with Chinese heritage where folklore and legend have a way of becoming popular fact? Good luck!

(Again, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I'm sure this holds true here too...)

[Judge Pen]

My experience with Indo teachers is such that you may never get a good answer... that is not a slam, just an observation of dealing with the culture!

The thing to do would be to find those other students of Ie Chang, and talk with them. Again, they may or may not corraborate the story, may not 'have' the story if they were outside 'the door' of Ie Changs school, but the CAN corrobrate what was taught... wha the The' brothers were like, how they interralated with other arts, etc.

THAT would be a constructive and interesting way to learn about the recent history of your style.

But getting a straight answer from an Indo? Especially with Chinese heritage where folklore and legend have a way of becoming popular fact? Good luck!

(Again, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I'm sure this holds true here too...)

MS2: clean out you PM box, man!

Devil's advocate here: If that's the culture, what's the real slam against SD. If it's not what GM Sin The says it is (I think you use the term Indo/JMA/southern shoalin CMA mix) but we can't ever be expected to hear the rest of the story, what's wrong?

[Thunaric]

The more I read in books and on websites it seems something strange is afoot, but it is martial arts. I bet the whole story really has to do with the covering up of a past of the art coming through the triads. The character of Su Kong may have been a symbol for a triad group or Su Kong may really have been Li Baoshu with the latter being his cover as triads often used the circus as cover. This also could explain the huge amounts of forms that may have been written down by different masters within the triads. I have also heard that Su Kong worked as a type of security guard running laps around caravans. So, if it did come through the triads a false cover would be understandable and only partly false since it does seem that alot of martial monks did end up in the triads. Also, this would explain the "japanization" of terms as a cover too. Perhaps Ie just wanted to leave that past behind and really concentrate on the martial end.

Overall, from what I can tell Shaolin-do is a great system through the stages I have been through for the average person -- which it seems to be geared towards. I mean average in that they want to learn a type of martial arts that is mentally stimulating, physically beneficial, and potentially useful in emergency situations. It also does follow a predictable progression that is foreseeable. Lets face it most people that can benefit from martial arts are not history freaks or martial arts junkies bothering about origins too much. Also, it does offer martial arts without too much emphasis on the actual religious/philosophical beliefs of many systems. Going to Shaolin-do will not seriously challenge a person's xtianity or islam for instance or make them shady in the eyes of the U.S. government.

What it doesn't seem to offer is any heavy immersion in any philsophies especially religious, much direct combat fighting training, heavy application training (at early stages anyway), or much personal attention from a master during the initial stages.

I guess its take it or leave it for what it is. In the end its up to oneself to make what they are going to out of what they do. At the point I am at though, I don't feel I am getting the training my psyche seems to need. I don't think this will really change either. This could be particular to the school I attend. I think it may just be too large for the most knowledgeable instructors to give much attention to each student. Were forms, athleticism and comraderie what I was looking for it would be great. But, its not. Perhaps I'm looking for something more ascetic.

So, I will look around and compare.