Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[synack]

Chain Whip makes some good points. Nobody has accused me of being "Karate like" but if they did, I'd ask for exact details. Personally I don't care if people say I look "Karate like" because it really doesn't matter. If they shrug and say "I donno, just looks karate like." Then I'll know they don't know what they're talking about. I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.

[brucereiter]

I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.

i think you will all see there are as many ways to "do it" as there are people doing it.
which is correct? which is wrong? why? can they all be correct? the ones who move a little "choppy" are they doing kempo/karate?

here ya go ... i can only speak for the internal side since that is what i do.

the sd way ... a least my understanding of the sd way of yang tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1c90Mrp3ffk

===================================
a few recognized masters ...
cheng man ching, yang tai chi chuan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

Fu Zhongwen
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rRZLJVfT6h4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zIpKW6AnK...elated&search=

Liu Gaoming - Yang Taiji
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8

hejinghan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdJpTJyyKyg
===================================
a whole bunch of regular people doing their thing with yang tai chi chuan


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59717221054205


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcrKABGco4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdsM3RNNYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8Bc_lSkAo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLw7ip_jSTg


http://www.polariswushu.net/tantuei18.mpg
http://www.polariswushu.net/tantuei22.mpg


a short clip of CMC/yang form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9cz5E44itc
and a yang fast form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uURneiryOY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHoE0EHHr28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu43UQA4vs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRJNFxioRSg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53J10WsV0KA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObDlzmt2SRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYI76s-X-ow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b26f3bIdyKA


http://www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/yangintro.mp4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLNbgXapNjQ


http://johnswang.com/my_taiji.wmv


http://www.taichi4you.nl/site/video.html


snake creeps down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ri2HS2WHDc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toisagr3-U8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR9Za5c-vuY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am_zZhW45vM

yang tai chi chuan grasp sparrows tail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7do1hHOQdC8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nu5DkFVElHE

some more guys who appear to be "normal' dudes practicing his stuff
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OrZ_VMxh61o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y69RAtxu4Rs

[Meat Shake]

This thread is funny.
I will say this and only this...
GM Sin was a nice man when I met him.
The end.

...
Or The' end...?
Hmmmm??????????

[NJM]

Chain Whip makes some good points. Nobody has accused me of being "Karate like" but if they did, I'd ask for exact details. Personally I don't care if people say I look "Karate like" because it really doesn't matter. If they shrug and say "I donno, just looks karate like." Then I'll know they don't know what they're talking about. I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.

Does your teacher show you the application(s) behind each move in your forms?

[arinathos.valin]

Hello all...

Been a long time lurker on this thread, and I'm about to "step into the Octagon" with my first post on this subject...

Firstly, my congratulations to Judge Pen, who has been remarkably civil in his posts even in the face of rather inflammatory statements. It's quite refreshing considering how poisonous some of the posts have been. People can disagree vehemently without being disagreeable... so thanks to JP for keeping a level head in the discussion.

I did Shaolin-Do from about 1997-2005, earning a black belt in the process. I stuck with the system despite some serious misgivings because of my instructor, who was excellent. He had a very good grasp of body mechanics, form, style, and a healthy respect for the internal arts. He would tell stories about Master Eric Smith that were mind-boggling from a skill standpoint. He was not a devout defender of Shaolin-Do lore, realizing that more than a few legends surrounding GMT were improbable. I still consider him a good friend...

So... what were my misgivings about Shaolin-Do as a martial art? Here are a few of them...

1) Although lineage is not the most important aspect of a martial art (you can have the best lineage in the world and STILL suck...) I do think it offers a way to verify who has come before you and what their skill level was. The Shaolin-Do lineage as described in the book "Shaolin-Do:Secrets from the Temple" is suspect, as are some of the 'tall tales' listed in the book about old masters. I find it hard to trust someone if they misrepresent their credentials, even if they are very capable in their abilites...

2) I found an overemphasis on forms in the system, and it seemed that some forms had been co-opted into the system without proper credit to the originators. I had previously had a great deal of training in Yang Taijiquan. In SD, the Taiji 24 move form originated in the 1950s as a condensed Yang form. The "Taiji 64" form is actually Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form, which some consider to be different in philosophy and practice than the original Yang style. The 'original' Yang style 108 move form is not in the SD system. The Baguazhang Classical form taught in SD is actually a variation of a form produced by Jiang Rong Qiao. None of this is discussed in any detail in the Secrets from the Temple book.

3) I felt the huge number of forms watered down the execution of these forms greatly. Paraphrasing Wang Shu Jin, it is better to do a few things well than to do many things poorly. I can remember watching a few tournaments in Lexington. A few of the performers were excellent... but more of them were uninspiring. At least one involving a higher level black belt and the Li Kuei axes was laughable. I've been doing some video comparisons between SD's version of Jiang Baguazhang and Chen Taiji with some other demonstrations of those same forms by Luo Jinhua and Ren Guangyi. The differences in technique are astounding, with subtleties in body mechanics and positioning that are not found in our versions of those forms. Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

4) The Gis...as superficial as this is, it still bugged me. I might have bought the idea that Indonesians hated Chinese enough for the art to go 'underground' as it were... but that certainly isn't the case in America. If we're a Chinese art, we should be wearing Chinese uniforms!!!

This isn't to say that practitioners of Shaolin-Do have no skill...there are students and teachers who would give ANY other school a run for their money in sparring/fighting. Certainly there have been significant benefits for me thanks to Shaolin-Do. I'm currently in a Shorin-Ryu Karate Dojo because excellent instruction in the internal martial arts is hard to come by here. The senseis have really ramped up my training quickly due to my past experience, and the katas are actually quite easy thanks to my previous experience with more complex forms. However, it makes me wonder how much ****her I would have come with my skills in Baguazhang, or Taiji if I had had a dedicated instructor in one of those arts, compared to the SD system where those forms are just one of a myriad of different forms.

Perhaps I'll come back with more, but it's past 1:30am right now.

G'night, all!

[arinathos.valin]

Hmph... darned blocking software...

The starred portion of my above message should say 'further'...

[Shaolin Wookie]

We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment.

Definately.....I remember saying that about a year ago..... The hardest punch I've ever seen and felt was thrown by an Okinawan Karate guy I visited sometime last Fall. Plus, they had sweet homemade sais that were sharpened on all three points. I need to get me some of those.

At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?”

Another thing that makes SD look more karate like is the focus on sequestering technique within the form. Generally, you focus more on sequences, and not the form as a whole. Three or four moves strung together formulates a technique, and we don't tend to ignore that fact. We don't bully straight through a sequence of four or five hits and a sweep and then parade nonchalantly into the next set of spinning smash kicks (beginners do, but then so do all beginners in every style). Plus, every punch you throw is supposed to deliver maximum power.

One of the most frustrating things about learning Longfist was that my teacher insisted on keeping the elbows locked. I never understood this. Even in straight punches, he told me to lock the elbows upon extension. I knew this might look good, from an aesthetic POV, but it was absolute **** when it came to power generation. Every time I pulled into the half-moon position, he would say---"No, must be straight locked out! You want get hurt?!" In SD, every punch extends, approaches full extension, then snaps before it gets there, and retracts from the target to get maximum snap. In that Longfist form (and all his Shaolin Chuan), there was no retraction.

Another funny thing is that he kept telling me to lock my elbows, and they were locked. I'm not Schwartzenegger, but I do have large enough biceps that they still bulge up quite a bit when extended. All his other students were in horrible shape (couldn't finish forms without nearly passing out). So I'd have him saying---"Elbows still bent! Must use straight arm!" even though they were straight.

I knew, just from looking, that their punches weren't worth a ****. They're the kind I don't even bother blocking, because I know I can take them and just start throwing down. (But my friend Richie was pretty good--still, he'd been doing it 6 years).

Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

I took this position for quite a while. I watched brown belt and black belt advancement tests, and brown and black sash advancement tests, and was appalled by the lack of understanding in certain forms. I asked myself: How can they advance, or think they should advance, if they're quite good at one thing, but **** poor at several others? Their Taiji might be excellent, but their pakua might be horrible; or their tiger might be excellent, yet their cranes are appalling.

Then I came to the understanding that it is indeed the old "learn one thing well, rather than 20 things poorly" kind of mentality at work. Generally, students will learn what they want far better than what they don't have great interest in. Yet they're exposed to the principles of diverse martial arts styles, so at least if they don't even approach mastering a system, they at least understand a part of it. Training in several diverse styles teaches different power mechanics (shoulder blade rolling and ripping power in tiger strikes/rakes, whipping power in cranes, snapping in mantis), gets your body moving in different ways, and generally helps your martial knowledge.

REally, I don't like internal arts. I know this about myself. It's not a lack of patience or practice. I just generally do not like them. I do not feel that I would use taiji movements in any kind of conflict. To me, Taiji is like golf--it's an activity some people find relaxing, but annoys me and frustrates me greatly. (I saw Bruce's vidpost, and said to myself: wow, I suck--and he's awesome.) Yet I've derived great benefit through the practice of taiji. My body mechanics improved manifold. I've managed to loosen up my waist to a greater degree, and I've helped myself coordinate hand and foot movements. I don't care what style it is, where it came from, etc. Honestly, before I started kung fu training at SD, I had no idea that taiji was an actual form, and not people just freestyling.... I do know enough about taiji, however, to see the parallels between what I'm doing there, and what I'm doing in, say, Se MEng Tao Lian (very alike, IMO).


I have no interest in mastering taiji. Hsing-I seems more up my alley. But before I get to that, I have to learn pakua. I'll try my best at it, and probably be pretty good from an outsiders viewpoint, I won't practice pakua as much as my kung fu forms, so it'll never be up to par with those, and someone (inside) looking from the outside will probably say: Yeah, his kung fu is good, but his pakua and taiji suck. WEll, I'd take no offense to that. But I guarantee the knowledge gained through learning those styles will be of great benefit, just as taking electives in college furthered my learning twofold.

Looking ahead at black belt, I say to myself: "Black Tiger....sweet! Spear...kind of cool, I guess." I'm a Tiger kind of guy. Looking at my brown belt material, I say to myself: "I like shorter staves, not the long staff (consequently, my long staff kind of sucks). Broadsword is definately up my alley, but it still needs a lot of work. If anything, I like my 3 (4 including yellow belt form) tigers the best. They fit my mentality and aggressiveness. But I'd really like to be good at crane, and just might get to the point where crane is my best style. After first black, I don't really see anything I'd say I was eager to learn until the drunken styles. But I'll learn those ranks' forms as well, because I know they're teaching me valuable principles, expanding my martial knowledge and repertory, and strengthening and loosening up my body for what I'll need to have at the next level.

I'll take a "C" in the internal program, 'cuz I'll be too busy trying to get an "A" in my external studies. It is nice to have that yin/yang balance, however.

4) The Gis...as superficial as this is, it still bugged me. I might have bought the idea that Indonesians hated Chinese enough for the art to go 'underground' as it were... but that certainly isn't the case in America. If we're a Chinese art, we should be wearing Chinese uniforms!!!

The shoulder on my frog button uniform just ripped rom neck to the arm seam, and there's a hole on the stomach of the shirt from a slip up with a kwan dao during the "swing of a thousand heads", where the spear end of the kwan dao ripped across my chest.

At some CSC schools (the one I attend included), they wear chinese garb. I'd rather have a gi, personally. They stand up stronger, and the material doesn't give very easily. And if someone grabs you and throws or tugs, the shirt wont rip....it'll just pull out of hte belt.

As a side note.....anyone who wears a gi needs a belt. Funny how some CMA schools shun belts, but then wear t-shirts tucked into cotton pants, yet still have a colored sash on the waist. There's no function to it, and it is therefore even more obviously about rank than anything.

[Leto]

RE: the flavor thing, and choppiness. I would love to do a karate kata side by side with a kung fu form to show the differences...however, as you said, everyone has their own "flavor". Karate people would probably say my kata aren't "crisp" enough, since they are flavored by my experience with shaolin and internal arts. kung fu people used to say my forms are too rigid, because of my experience with karate, they wanted me to "flow" more, although my snap and power was excellent. *lol* (that was the comment most of my panel/peers gave me on my tests, although I regularly scored very highly)

I don't have a space or a camera to make such videos, but I'm sure everyone can find clips of karate. So far I haven't seen any clips of SD's "foundational" material, the lower belt and brown belt forms, which I think is what we really want to compare to. Mostly demonstrations tend to be what people feel is the most "colorful", difficult, or advanced forms. This is not even mentioning the internal side SD, which I feel really does comprise about half of the style, and can't be compared to karate at all.

Uechi Ryu, the Okinawan style closest to its Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

Goju Ryu, second closest to Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

Matsubayashi Ryu (shorin ryu)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=7

Wado Ryu, Japanese karate
probably most removed from Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=8

Wuzhuquan, five ancestor fist
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Babulien
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

[Mas Judt]

Well, you can't MAKE them drink...

[brucereiter]

leto some good observations there ... liked your post.





who is this person? where are they from? what are they wearing?

Babulien
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

[Shaolin Wookie]

We've been led to the well before, but the trolls keep peeing in the water, so we make the wiser decision....

[brucereiter]

Se MEng Tao Lian (very alike, IMO).

that is one of my favorite forms to watch. if i did external i think it would be a fav too.

wookie, it seems you are in a better place with your training ... :-)


best,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

Made peace with it....hahaha.....

[Chain Whip]

I felt the huge number of forms watered down the execution of these forms greatly. Paraphrasing Wang Shu Jin, it is better to do a few things well than to do many things poorly.

I guess one would have to define "better" If by better we mean a person would have better skill with a front snap kick if that is all they did. That would obviously make sense. Most would argue that maybe more than a front snap kick would be better for martial skill. So, let's add a punch maybe a block, maybe another kick. Where you cut-off your learning is the issue. Some would say 10 techniques and others might say 100.

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

What many people seem to do in martial arts is study in a fashion that best strokes their ego. They want to find a style that suits them, learn a few forms and just work on those forever. While it may sound logical to study a style that suits your natural skills it is hard to call that personal development. What you are doing is identifying your weaknesses and making sure you don’t address them.

[Mas Judt]

Well Bruce, I am most comfortable discussing Xing-yi, and I'd have to say that your linking form is very Karate-like, and does not exhibit Xing-yi principles or flavor.

Post these over at Empty Flower, and see the response you get. The guys there are very nice and will consider your relative experience.

You are obviously dedicated to your style, and I noticed you have linked to some good teachers... I'm not one of those guys who thinks nothing is better than bad training, as with a little ingenuity a person can learn a lot about fighting - but they still cannot claim a system they did not train in.

FWIW- I've seen the footage of Sin The' - he is in remarkable physical condition, but what he demonstrated was not CMA - it looked exactly like a Karate guy imitating CMA. So, really, looking at the root of the system, the answer is very obvious.