Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Old Noob]

So where is Ie in the photos? All we have is paintings of him. And I was making that statement as another person claimed these photos were actually of Ie Chang Ming.

Yeah. I was going to point out the same thing but you beat me to it. The drawings of Ie show him to be slightly heavier set in the face than the photos of Ie/Hiang Sr. But who the heck knows now. There's no reason why a guy who trained directly with both Ie and Hiang Sr would incorrectly label the photos. So I guess we have to assume that we don't know exactly what Ie looked like.

[bodhi warrior]

The 2nd photo looks like the beginning of tang Lang chuen.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah. I was going to point out the same thing but you beat me to it. The drawings of Ie show him to be slightly heavier set in the face than the photos of Ie/Hiang Sr. But who the heck knows now. There's no reason why a guy who trained directly with both Ie and Hiang Sr would incorrectly label the photos. So I guess we have to assume that we don't know exactly what Ie looked like.

Who knows? If this guy was training with Ie and "Hiang Sr" in the late '60s (right after Sin The came to America, you would think that he had photos of him too.

[BM2]

GM Sin's father was born around 1916. You can do the math and look at the photos.

[Empty_Cup]

GM Sin's father was born around 1916. You can do the math and look at the photos.

So if those pics were taken in the 60's then he'd be a pretty old-looking 40/50-something. Maybe he took a sip from the wrong grail...

[shen ku]

I thought his dad didn't want him to train at first

[Leto]

Here are a few questions and comments raised by the Netherlands information:

Could "Hiang Sr" be grandfather, rather than father, to the The brothers? That would fit with Hiang's story that he was trained by his grandfather, and also Sin's story that Ie was not his grandfather, although both of them would be lying about or omitting something. The lineage just one generation back should not be this obscure. If it's all made up, we now have three different schools making up very similar stories and using the same names. It is practically impossible that so many names and elements in common are really coincidences and are actually completely different people and schools. Only one of them (if any) can be telling the truth. So, is Ie Chang Ming an alias for Hiang Sr, and actually Grandfather The? Were Ie and Hiang Sr both teachers within the same school? Does Hiang Sr even exist? Why doesn't Decramer mention his family name? His student Van Hooj calls him Hiang Kuan Teh. Hiang could have been a martial arts teacher, but would not teach his own grandchildren/children, instead leaving that to his colleague Ie. This would explain the different styles taught to Decramer and the Netherlands bunch vs what Sin and Hiang teach. Or they could have just taught different material as time went on, as is sometimes the case in martial arts schools, styles evolve and change. Maybe after Sin and Hiang left, the way they taught started changing. Or the brothers got different instruction because they were family. Or the material in SD has been so modified by Sin and Hiang that it wouldn't be recognizeable to the original teachers and other students.
One thing the Dutch group has over Sin and Hiang are actual pictures of a group of students and their teacher, that include themselves. It's hard to verify whether a picture is exactly who and what is claimed. But it is definately better than a painting.

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

[Empty_Cup]

Here are a few questions and comments raised by the Netherlands information:

Could "Hiang Sr" be grandfather, rather than father, to the The brothers? That would fit with Hiang's story that he was trained by his grandfather, and also Sin's story that Ie was not his grandfather, although both of them would be lying about or omitting something. The lineage just one generation back should not be this obscure. If it's all made up, we now have three different schools making up very similar stories and using the same names. It is practically impossible that so many names and elements in common are really coincidences and are actually completely different people and schools. Only one of them (if any) can be telling the truth. So, is Ie Chang Ming an alias for Hiang Sr, and actually Grandfather The? Were Ie and Hiang Sr both teachers within the same school? Does Hiang Sr even exist? Why doesn't Decramer mention his family name? His student Van Hooj calls him Hiang Kuan Teh. Hiang could have been a martial arts teacher, but would not teach his own grandchildren/children, instead leaving that to his colleague Ie. This would explain the different styles taught to Decramer and the Netherlands bunch vs what Sin and Hiang teach. Or they could have just taught different material as time went on, as is sometimes the case in martial arts schools, styles evolve and change. Maybe after Sin and Hiang left, the way they taught started changing. Or the brothers got different instruction because they were family. Or the material in SD has been so modified by Sin and Hiang that it wouldn't be recognizeable to the original teachers and other students.
One thing the Dutch group has over Sin and Hiang are actual pictures of a group of students and their teacher, that include themselves. It's hard to verify whether a picture is exactly who and what is claimed. But it is definately better than a painting.

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

Good questions. Why don't we put together the most important ones and ask the Netherlands group? There is an email address listed on their site.

[One student]

Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.

Reference to the school and sifu in the Netherlands has come up before, as a student at the same school Ie Chang Ming taught at, and where both The's went. This is the first time I've seen their material. Other than its not the exact same forms (that SD has shown yet at least), anyone who has done SD for a long time can see the similarities in the material, postures, even common techniques. And of course (other than the patches) the uniform/belt. I thought others even had photos of the Sifu in the Netherlands at the Bandung school. And other than the "grandmaster" part, HKT can't be a coincidence. How many HKT's in CMA could there be originating in Bandung, Indonesia? And who knows what goes on at that school that no one outside of it knows about.

And although HKT also moved to US, he went back more often than ST, and moved back, and stays there more. Could easily have still participated with the school, shared stuff, taught some there, too.

But the existence, material, and professed lineage of the Netherlands' school and is commonalities with SD, seems to clearly indicate, if not prove,at least that:

1. SD-type material, and what others have called the "flavor" of the material and how it is performed and packaged, is not a figment of GMT's imagination -- others do it, too.

2. Unless that school is part of the same "scam" others have accused SD of, it does have origins/roots in Shaolin -- even if influenced by native Indonesian arts (or the other way around). Here's another non-SD school, but from the same origin, saying so.

3. Su Kong was not made up by GMT, this school gives the same lineage, even with the same photo -- right or wrong they both got it from somewhere.

If only those who are really close to GMST would show him this and ask him what he knows about it.

[One student]

Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.

Just speculating, could also be an uncle, cousin, etc., wouldn't have to be father. Or could be unrelated with common last name.

[One student]

Who knows? If this guy was training with Ie and "Hiang Sr" in the late '60s (right after Sin The came to America, you would think that he had photos of him too.

I know of only two pictures, maybe three ever taken of me and my teachers, and I don't have any of them. Don't think that's just me. I wouldn't put much into the lack of pictures, much less the lack of publishing them.

[BM2]

I thought his dad didn't want him to train at first

I implied that it was not his father.

[OTD]

Best I can do on short notice
Hope you can read the names

OTD

[MasterKiller]

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

I'm pretty sure BM2 showed these to Sin The when I first got them. I never really heard what the repsonse was, though.

[Judge Pen]

Best I can do on short notice
Hope you can read the names

OTD

Ah, once again you tease us with just a little information....