Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

I agree with your post 100%. However, isn't there the argument to be made that Mike Reid is unique in that he was a professional athlete with obviously superior talents that go beyond his training or understanding of SD? I think that's one of the reasons that Master Reid's ability is so easily discounted by these detractors.

I will add this. I detest the lies that have been told in SD also. But I woudn't take me, Bruce and Sean against Master Mullins either. Maybe that's a misplaced respect for my former teacher, but I respect his ability based on my own experiences. If those that saw him on tape were not impressed, then nothing in SD would impress you (which I guess is their point all along). But I've sparred Master Garry a dozen times and I don't think I would last long if he intended harm. I've felt that way with others outside of SD as well.

And you're right about Bruce. I played pushing hands with him once and knew quickly that I was outmatched.

[pazman]

So you have 2 new students. One a fit, natural athlete. The other is 40 lbs overweight with a hip problem. They progress through the rank system together. Both receive bb's. The athlete does not look much better than when he started, however looks phenomenal in every thing he does. The overweight guy has lost the weight, improved tremendously, but still looks a little sloppy in his technique due to hip issues. So based on work and effort, who deserves the rank more?

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

[Syn7]

Don't fight bjj on its own terms. Use your wrestling, be careful, and don't reach for openings. I'm not talking competition here, where someone has to win. I'm talking straight rolling. If you can pull back to your feet, you should, rather than pursuing a better bb through his rolls. Its not easy, and sometimes this is where i get tapped, but i can and do escape if i dont like where a seasion on the fround is going. Too many people play by expectation, and stay committed to the ground when they don't have to.

When your opponent begins to get a little annoyed that you pull away, he'll often try to keep you grounded, and this is where most errors happen on his part.

My post did come off as too ****y though. Bb in bjj are much better than me at bjj. Also, I meant to say that I sometimes tap Black belts, but that more often than not I wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that I roll with---and I don't roll with only black belts).

I think you missed the point, man.

[Syn7]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

The one with the skill deserves it. The other guy gets a big thumbs up for effort, but no belt. Giving unearned ranks is irresponsible and dangerous. Not only that, but for every bullsh1t belt you give out, you weaken the system as a whole.

[RJ797]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

But you both graduated and got your diplomas right?

[Syn7]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

Nice analogy.

So how long do you think it will take some apologist to come out with the word "curve"?

[RJ797]

Personally, I think Garry Mullins is the best martial artist in SD.

Years ago I “rolled” a little bit with Gary Grooms and he was the most explosive person I have ever seen. Even though Grooms could deal with Bruce and most everyone else, he was very clear that he was no match for Garry Mullins.

[pazman]

But you both graduated and got your diplomas right?

The math wiz graduated with honors in Mathematics and went on to grad school. He probably throws money at strippers in his spare time these days.

I use my spare time to post on KFM forums.

[Shaolindynasty]

One observation about the training vids you put up and I want to emphasize that I am not being critical: Your drills were excellent and I think, like meecer, that progressive drilling would be a great thing to add. But, when you started free sparring, I didn't see alot of those combinations expressed; it devolved back to one or two punches and withdrawal. Also, the stance and hand position changed dramatically (hands lowered significantly) and, at the end of the day, your light sparring looked almost identical to the light sparring we do at my school.

Actually there was no free sparring in the video i posted. What you are refering to as free sparring is actually a another drill we do coined "chop choi sparring". This drill is designed as a way to bridge between static and live drilling into free sparring. In that drill we limit the techniques used to chop (see the 10 elements video), rear hand straight(cross) and lam choi which is a swinging punch to the body. Also that video was filmed on one training day and those drill were chosen for that particular session. Many drills we do have an emphasis on contination but that continuation of technique can only be executed if the positioning and timing is correct. Whenever you drill or spar with a person attempting to stop you from gaining position much of the round will be 1 or 2 shots at a time as both parties are attempting to create an opening to find the right position to let combinations loose. We could force the issue and stand toe to toe and trade punches but that would defeat the purpose of this particular exercise. here is footage of the same drill while training at my sifus school with a little higher level of contact and more combos http://youtu.be/syxf4EEAIGE

Which brings me to this

I have a theory for why this is. Your drills train with the head as the primary target. Not the only target but the primary one. When you move to sparring, you seem to follow the rules that most non MMA schools follow (except for Kyokoshin and a few others); medium contact to the body and none to the head. Thus all the techniques you just spent time drilling are exchanged for lowered hands and gut shots. And since you don't drill as many awesome body shots and how to punch to the body while keeping your hands up, the people free sparring never look as competent as they did in the drills. I think this is a real dilemna for the casual martial artist, whether they are karate, TKD, CMA, or whatever. If you don't spar with heavy contact and good speed, and head contact, then your application of your material is always going to be lacking when judged by someone who does train in that method. I think this is one of the big reasons MMA advocates justifiably criticize traditional MAs. On the other hand, training in a striking art with that kind of realism really kicks up the injury ratio and also shrinks the pool of your potential customers.

alot of things not correct in this theory you presented. The first and most obvious to me when first reading this is the assumtion that we dont engage in heavy contact free sparring. Anyone who knows me or my sifus school would laugh at this assumption. we have participated regularly since 1999 in full contact sanda competition, we would have started sooner but we didnt have a school before then. In order to be competitiove in sanda you have to spar. Yet I dont expect you to take my word for it so let me provide you with more video footage of some of the free sparring that takes place at my school and my sifus school.

One example here of free sparring we do. The guy with the shirt practices CLF so you can see him demonstrait the concepts in my initial post. No shirt is a Ving Tsun practitioner
http://youtu.be/i6BxUFlx1ZE

round 2
http://youtu.be/SnAdOaCLBQk

In regards to your "awesome body shot" comment

video of me using various training methods to develop my striking, take note that the majority of the punches thrown are body shots during the heavy bag work. Also notice where I carry my hands. When fighting we favor leading with the chop choi by holding the lead hand where I do I can throw the chop without any kind of prep or telegraphing. The rear hand is held high to protect my head. This is the same hand position I used in the other video I posted

http://youtu.be/aytjXyZUb8Q

also here is another video taken at my sifus school of guys training. notice the body shots BTW, this video also has some footage of free sparring

http://youtu.be/7gjGCHY0Svc

btw, notice the use of the clf 10 elements used with boxing gloves on

As a final note I should say that while we occasionally spar full contact for the most part we check our power as frequent full contact sparring can have long lasting detrimental effects. If you want to develop your power hit the bag. Sparring is meant to teach timing, distance, set up etc.

Or you can choose to fight full contact which we do

There are hours of footage proving what we do and the effects of it. Just search Ng family martial arts and our videos pop up whether from my sifus school or affiliates based around chicago and illinois

As you can see with the actual evidence provided that your hypothosis is incorrect

[Judge Pen]

Personally, I think Garry Mullins is the best martial artist in SD.

Years ago I “rolled” a little bit with Gary Grooms and he was the most explosive person I have ever seen. Even though Grooms could deal with Bruce and most everyone else, he was very clear that he was no match for Garry Mullins.

I've always had the respect for Garry Mullins because he and his sons were my teachers once I moved to Tennessee, but I was also impressed with Master Nance, Mignonge, Grooms and Reid once I had an opportuity to see them in person. It took that type of experience (it's easier to discount someone on video). Honestly, I was never impressed with Gary Grooms until I met the man in person. His personality was still a little off-putting, but I recognized he had some skill behind it.

When I trained in SD, I would have frank conversations about the declining standards in advancement. There were people being advanced, even to the rank of "master" that I had a hard time believing they were as skilled as the people that came before them. I struggled with the idea of advancing to 5th myself because I didn't meet the expectation that I had of someone of that level. I stopped training before that issue became ripe.

[GeneChing]

He probably throws money at strippers in his spare time these days.

I use my spare time to post on KFM forums.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure there's much difference...

[Judge Pen]

shaolindynasty,

What was the experience level of your student versus the Ving Tsun student?

[Shaolindynasty]

What was the experience level of your student versus the Ving Tsun student?

Actually he is my sifus student. his experience level was around 1 year at the time that was filmed. He was in chicago for school, hes from france. recently he came back for a month to train with us so hes in some of the other vids I posted that were filmed last aug-sept

[JSE]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

I cant disagree with that.

The reason for the example I gave is because of the discussion of skill perceived from a video and relation to effort put in to achieve rank.

[Judge Pen]

Actually he is my sifus student. his experience level was around 1 year at the time that was filmed. He was in chicago for school, hes from france. recently he came back for a month to train with us so hes in some of the other vids I posted that were filmed last aug-sept

With that years’ experience, would you characterize him as "beginner" or "intermediate"? I never trained or fought under SanDa rules. Why no kicks or takedowns? Do you find the rules encourage western boxing techniques over some of the more traditional hand techniques?