Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

Lol...when the purpose of push hands becomes "to win," you're not doing push hands.

It always annoys me when people turn push hands into secondrate wrestling/chi sau.

But that's exactly what push hands is for. To train upsetting an opponent's root, locking their body, offsetting balance & hopefully in the end, throwing them. There's a ton of shuai in taiji. Lots of it... all over. Push hands is a way to work entries, checks, guard work... wow, sounds a lot like .... ... but different.

[Empty_Cup]

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes).
...

Re: duration of form. IMO TJQ should incorporate breathing meditation. So the duration of the form should follow from one's natural breathing rhythm.

If one wants to train something specific about the form and not connect the breathing, then go as fast or as slow as you need to train that aspect.

[RJ797]

But that's exactly what push hands is for. To train upsetting an opponent's root, locking their body, offsetting balance & hopefully in the end, throwing them. There's a ton of shuai in taiji. Lots of it... all over. Push hands is a way to work entries, checks, guard work... wow, sounds a lot like .... ... but different.

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

[bodhi warrior]

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

Nice! You have any other stories from the past? I like hearing them.

[kwaichang]

My point in bringing this factoid up is Both Master Joe and Master Smith are students of SKT and that said their skills are derived from the source of instruction. While GMT may not be the best forms person he apparently taught something to someone for them to do so well in China. KC

[Syn7]

My point in bringing this factoid up is Both Master Joe and Master Smith are students of SKT and that said their skills are derived from the source of instruction. While GMT may not be the best forms person he apparently taught something to someone for them to do so well in China. KC

Show me some clips of their greatness, please.

[Syn7]

Is that a "No, I couldn't be bothered?" or is that a "No, despite the fact that every cell phone has a video cam on it, there are no videos of these long time MAists doing their thing."


"But I seened it, I done sweared I seened it!!!"

[hskwarrior]

Is that a "No, I couldn't be bothered?" or is that a "No, despite the fact that every cell phone has a video cam on it, there are no videos of these long time MAists doing their thing."


"But I seened it, I done sweared I seened it!!!"

makes you wonder whats there to see huh?

[Syn7]

[hskwarrior]

i bet that loser is kicking himself for making wild claims. all talk. no action. wahhh wahhh wahhhhhhhhhhh. its kinda sad.

nah, its hella funny how he bumped his gums and is now backtracking.

[Judge Pen]

Starting to look that way. I gave him the benefit of doubt, but that is falling away fast.



No, it looks like you're just making the assumption that the other two guys are better because you are emotionally attached.

I could be wrong though. How many times have you seen Bruce do serious push hands with high end competition? I'm going to assume you have seen the other two many times considering your previous definitive statements about their great skills.

I've never pushed hands with Joe Schaffer or Bill Leonard, but I did push hands with Bruce once (man that's been almost 8 years ago now). Bruce was good: very, very good. He humbled me cause I thought I was good then too but I was outclassed. But at least the Bruce that I knew 8 years ago was not better than Master Garry or his son Master Mike in my opinion (at least at that time). I can't comment on his skill today, but I'd wager he has only gotten better.

[Judge Pen]

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes). If SD wants a long tai chi form, seems it ought to practice a long form.

Waysun Liao published a book on Tai Chi called the "Tai Chi Classics" in which he posted drawings of a "Temple" tai chi form in the back, with postures / descriptions. Guess what? It was the CMC form, move-for-move. Personally, I think both guys (Waysun / gMS) had hte same misinformation, either consciously or ignorantly.

That's an intersting observation. SD does play it's Yang Tai Chi significantly slower than other Yang Tai Chi practitioners that I've observed. From a training standpoint I can see some benefit to that, but I think it's counter-productive from a relaxation and flow perspective.

[Judge Pen]

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

Anyone have a video of this?

[hskwarrior]

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

forget sparring and push hands for a moment. what kind of REAL fighting did this JOE have? has anyone seen him in a REAL fight? if you haven't seen him fight FOR REAL, how do you know he can fight? everyone says they can fight till they get popped in the mouth.

[shen ku]

I watched a friendly match of masters once, joe & mullins had a nice match , joe won. There was alittle blood on both parts. But Frank won the day.