Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[bawang]

That form is pretty. But I doubt it would make someone a better fighter. Better dancer maybe.

then stop doing your sh1t forms and join MMA.

I got a brown belt in Shotokan, I know how u karate fgts train.

[bawang]

Xiao Hong Quan is a pretty form???

if someone is forced to eat feces, without choice, I can understand that. if someone is offered food, but continues to consume feces, then he bears the full responsibility of a sh1t eater.

[Empty_Cup]

if someone is forced to eat feces, without choice, I can understand that. if someone is offered food, but continues to consume feces, then he bears the full responsibility of a sh1t eater.

You are a joke.

[bawang]

You are a joke.

look in the mirror

[Leto]

I understand what you're saying and of course it's to be expected that different people will have different interpretations of forms. However, what I was attempting to describe is different: at the Soard schools, you could learn the same form 3 different ways under the same instructor in the span of 3 months. The overnight changes usually occur after one of the periodic "instructor training" sessions the Soards require of those under them, where they supposedly use mind control tactics such as sleep deprivation.

For example, you could (and I have):

1) Spend a lot of one on one time with a very senior instructor (i.e. someone who should know brown/black material inside and out) preparing for a test, poring over various forms, asking for and receiving feedback, and being told in no uncertain terms to do, say, Movement X.

2) Travel to Denver (required location for most testing) for the test, perform Movement X and score very well (74-75).

3) Return to your school and continue training Movement X while your instructor stays behind at "instructor training"

4) Upon his return, find your instructor regarding you with confusion as he watches you perform the exact Movement X he demonstrated and approved merely 1 week prior, saying "no that's wrong"

5) Witness a bizarre cover-up wherein the next time that form is taught or reviewed during an actual class, the instructor implements the changes with phrases like "I'm seeing students doing X, but that's wrong and I don't know where they got the idea they should be doing X, instead you should be doing Y", and meeting objections with "nothing has changed, it's always been Y, this is the way the monks have always done it"

Every instructor I trained with did this, in the exact same way, as though they were being told how to do it, or at least having it done to them. Now consider that instructor training occurs 6-10 times per year, and maybe 3-4 different forms are "reviewed" each time.

There are variations. Sometimes Movement X is omitted entirely and/or new ones are added. But I lived through enough of it to see X become Y, Y become Z, Z be omitted, Y be re-added, and finally become X once again, in many different forms, all to the steady tempo of Soard instructor brainwashing.

They don't have instructor training that often, do they? I seem to remember it once or twice a year, maybe three times. They did have them up for three days straight, with only a few hours of sleep a night. I haven't been there since '06, though. It's weird that your instructor actually acted like the new changes had always been there. My teacher would come back, we'd have a session with all the assistant instructors to go over the changes to our core material, and he'd point out what stuff was new, and just say that we needed to start teaching it this way. It was the worst for the lower belts who had just learned something the old way, confusing and hard to explain. I did think it was strange how the Soards would just change movements in the forms occasionally. At the time, I didn't suspect it was a method of control or brainwashing, but that it was a sign of their evolving interpretation of the material. I figured they were changing things based on finding a new application they wanted to include, or a movement which flowed better with the form. But the idea that it would change at all meant that it was definitely not some kind of ancient tradition from the temple, or that the "masters" had any kind of profound knowledge that no one else does. My teacher was never much of a cool-aid drinker, he didn't convert to veganism or anything. He just struggled to stay in business and keep the doors open, and accepted their business template to do that. I think he eventually left the system (don't know if he was made to leave, or the school wasn't making money, or if there were personal issues which led to him leaving town) so don't know what he's doing now.
To be fair, I have seen S.Soard do the one-legged squat from Fu chia chien and the five animal form, I learned both from her, and she was pretty hard on the students to work their stances and conditioning when I was there. There were certainly upper level students and teachers who couldn't do it, however. The attitude that came across to me was that we were expected to do the stances as much as we could, and with practice you'd eventually get there The whole operation there does look more and more like a big pyramid scheme, the more perspective one gets, and I don't disagree with the ridiculousness of the testing. I sat on lots of panels myself. A big problem is, most of the people judging aren't qualified to judge anyone, except on whether or not the order of movements was performed correctly. The tests are just money-making strategy anyway. That is why no one ever fails, it happens on a schedule, and the scores really mean nothing. The last year I was there I dodged actually sitting in on tests as often as I could, it was just pointless.

[Iron Palm]

They don't have instructor training that often, do they? I seem to remember it once or twice a year, maybe three times.

AFAIK Every Soard seminar included instructor training, so prior to the sexual assault that was: Portland, SF, LA, LV, Alb, Phx, CS, Boise, NY, and I'm probably forgetting a few.

It's weird that your instructor actually acted like the new changes had always been there.

It wasn't just one.

To be fair, I have seen S.Soard do the one-legged squat from Fu chia chien and the five animal form, I learned both from her, and she was pretty hard on the students to work their stances and conditioning when I was there.

I've seen both of them demo material adequately, but IMO never of the caliber expected of someone who is going to walk around calling themselves 7th degree senior master. I've met people who don't call themselves anything with vastly more skill, and who have too much pride in their art to ever demonstrate anything "halfway".

A big problem is, most of the people judging aren't qualified to judge anyone, except on whether or not the order of movements was performed correctly.

I couldn't agree more. If I squint really hard I can rationalize away having 1st degrees evaluate other first degrees as some kind of a stop gap since the "masters" can't be everywhere at once, but even the sacred yearly Denver pilgrimage resulted in no additional feedback and I was forced to conclude there simply isn't any to give.

[kungfujunky]

The Soards have recently lost more of their schools...I dont know the details but find it interesting...

I remember the changing moves BS and thought it was total horse crap and would not change usually unless the move made sense in the flow of the form.

[Leto]

I've seen both of them demo material adequately, but IMO never of the caliber expected of someone who is going to walk around calling themselves 7th degree senior master. I've met people who don't call themselves anything with vastly more skill, and who have too much pride in their art to ever demonstrate anything "halfway".

Oh, definitely. There certainly was no "mastery" there. That, I think, goes back to the root of the whole system. Most of the material was never mastered by anyone, including Sin The, I am sure. I know there was more than one instructor who thought they were holders of some ancient spiritual knowledge, and acted like the Soards were gurus of the highest order. I'm just saying mine wasn't like that, not that he necessarily knew better martial arts, he still taught their curriculum and didn't rock the boat. He didn't break away after the harassment scandal, but I wasn't there at the time so I have no idea what was going on with him during all that.
When I was there, there wasn't a Portland school to speak of. One of the black belts from my school went out there to start one, was running classes out of a health club, and ended up going incommunicado. Later someone else went out there with the support of the Soards and got a full program going. NY wasn't a school yet, either, he was still a student in Boulder. Salt Lake had just started up and was a small program that didn't warrant a visit yet. AFAIK, when there was a seminar, the Soards would meet with the instructor of that school the day or night before to go over what they were doing. Each year they would pick one of the seminar visits to host the instructor training that everyone was required to go to. It would change locations to be fair to all the teachers. One year it was Boise, next year Alb, then Phoenix, etc. That was when they did the three or four day marathon session, tell the instructors what new material they were going to introduce in the following year, and make adjustments to various forms. Aspiring instructors or people they were grooming to be instructors were also invited to these. They might have changed their format after my time, and decided they needed to do that at every seminar to keep tighter control. It was hard on my instructor, because he could barely afford to keep the doors open, never mind travel to far away places like LV or the Cali schools more than once a year. If they started requiring that, it might explain one reason why he finally left the program.
I once brought up, just to my own teacher and his wife, that I thought it might not be proper to have such lax standards (really no standards) for our testing. I was told that it was really all about people improving themselves, not holding them to an objective standard. If they could do something more than they could before, then they should pass and move on to new material. "Not everyone can be as hardcore as you", was the phrase that was used, and it was mentioned that I couldn't expect a 60 year old lady who was a student to perform the same as myself or anyone younger. I let it go after that, the system was a lost cause. I understood what they were saying about people with physical limitations not being held back when they are doing the best they can...but there has to be a limit. We were passing perfectly healthy young people who barely could remember the order of moves in the form, and couldn't keep their balance after throwing a kick. I was ashamed to see such people testing in front of a panel, I felt bad for them because I know they were usually pressured into doing it. The most influence I had on the issue was that I might be given a group of students and told to review with them to make sure they were ready for their test this week. Sometimes one or more of them hadn't even memorized one of their forms yet. I could tell him that they weren't really ready, but I knew that wasn't going to mean anything ultimately. If it wasn't this week, it would be put off until next week, or for one more class, and what they needed was a couple months at least. He simply couldn't afford not to have people pay for testing as often as possible. It was a sucky truth of the business, which is one reason why I have never started such a business myself. I realize he, and probably other instructors in many styles, try to rationalize such things in order not to feel like they are scamming people and cheapening their art. But the truth for most of them is all about keeping the lights on and food on the table. For those at the top of the pyramid, not struggling but maintaining this type of business practice anyway, it is just inexcusable.

[JSE]

in my humble opinion, if you just watch xiaohongquan on youtube and mimic it for 10 min, it would be 1000x better than what you learned for 10 years.

Dont get me wrong, I supplement as best I can with video's and books. But nothing beats having an instructor to make corrections when needed and motivate when laziness takes over.

My school was not a typical SD school. I do feel lucky that my instructor has always put the majority of the focus on conditioning and application from the forms. After the separation, it became part of the testing material. You have to perform the form, then demonstrate an application for each movement.

And he happens to be a hell of a fighter to boot.

Look, SD is what SD is. (still wondering if it is for real or not lol) Most of the people are aware and either dont care, or disassociate themselves and try to make the best of the training they had invested so much time and money in. My loyalty was never with SD or Sin The. My loyalty was to my instructor. When the "truth" came out, he was honest and transparent through the whole process with all of is students.

Given my current geographic location, I have 2 choices. I can continue my training and do the best that I can with it, try to supplement as much as I can, and enjoy it, given that I now know all of the shadiness of the lineage (which was ALWAYS suspect for me). Or I can ***** and moan, quit, and either do nothing or go to an MMA or TKD school. I have done both and would prefer not to go back to either of those. They just were not for me. Just my .02 Flame suit on. Proceed.

[CQCKenpo]

Okay, as they say -- I'm a long time reader and first time poster to this thread.

Background: I was born, raised, and they attempted to educate me in Lexington, Kentucky. In 1970, during my senior year at Lafayette High School, Hiang The (GM Sin The's brother) started a karate club at my school and after the first lesson I was hooked on the martial arts and I remain so to this day (I hold black belts in three different systems (none of them Shaolindo).

Although I stayed with Shaolindo for about 4 years (obtaining my first degree brown belt), by nature I am a researcher and I immediately started reading everything that I could find on the martial arts - especially Chinese martial arts. I soon started having doubts about what I was learning and the way it was being taught.

What attracted me to this thread was the discovery that so many people had the same issues with Shaolindo that I had 40 years ago, namely:
1) the use of white Japanese karate gis and karate style belts
2) the use of Japanese terminology (do, ippon kumite, katas)
3) the short katas (I could find no evidence of any Chinese system teaching "short katas")
4) the overall low standard applied to the teaching and the belt testing at the time.

For example, I can remember being at a class in September 1971 at the old ROTC building on the University of Kentucky campus (the other old timers will remember that building), watching a class of beginning students. These were generally college students who signed up for lessons in the "mystical" (at that time) art of karate. Sin The charged $10-$15 dollars a month for three lessons per week (so it was affordable).

What stands out in my mind about that one class was seeing approximately 150 brand-new students standing in four rows, in horse stance, throwing reverse punches with one (1) instructor up front for all 150 students. It was then that I started thinking, "can these people really be learning anything or is this all about the money?" Also, although I like to think I was a dedicated student who worked really hard to prepare for belt tests, I saw many people given belts who were totally unprepared. At one test I attended I watched Sin The begin filling out belt diplomas for everyone before the tests were even completed.

So why did I stay with Shaolindo for 4 years? First, at that time Shaolindo was "the only game in town." In 1970 the ONLY fighting arts available in Lexington was either Shaolindo or boxing at the downtown YMCA. Second, I found that the techniques worked! Third, it was enjoyable - I enjoyed learning the katas and being in class with the other students. I believe that many average people simply want to get some exercise and enjoy themselves. They do not really care if the katas are "authentic CMA" or "stolen" from other systems. They simply view Shaolindo as more fun than Pilates.

In all honesty, if I was to move back to Lexington when I retire I would probably go back and study for a while with Hiang The (who after all was my first instructor) -- again, simply because out of nostalgia and for fun.

[CQCKenpo]

Sorry, I got so busy with the history that I forgot about the 30 short katas. As have mentioned previously in this thread, TCMA do not have "short katas." So where did Sin The get the idea for them? After working with friends of mine who study the Indonesian system of pentjak silat I would like to suggest a idea.

Sin The grew up in Indonesia and may have been exposed to some of the pentjak silat teachings (even on a very periperal basis). One of the characteristics of the Indonesian systems are short sequences of attack/defense called "jurus". Although in no way identical, they are the closest training to Shaolindo's short katas that I have ever seen. I just wonder if Sin The copied the concept of jurus when he was creating the short katas...

Well, that is my thought. I would be interested in hearing what Judge Pen and others think of this idea. Please feel free to flame me if you think that I am totally full of Chi.

[Judge Pen]

(I hold black belts in three different systems (none of them Shaolindo).


So why did I stay with Shaolindo for 4 years? ...I found that the techniques worked!

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

[Judge Pen]

Sorry, I got so busy with the history that I forgot about the 30 short katas. As have mentioned previously in this thread, TCMA do not have "short katas." So where did Sin The get the idea for them? After working with friends of mine who study the Indonesian system of pentjak silat I would like to suggest a idea.

Sin The grew up in Indonesia and may have been exposed to some of the pentjak silat teachings (even on a very periperal basis). One of the characteristics of the Indonesian systems are short sequences of attack/defense called "jurus". Although in no way identical, they are the closest training to Shaolindo's short katas that I have ever seen. I just wonder if Sin The copied the concept of jurus when he was creating the short katas...

Well, that is my thought. I would be interested in hearing what Judge Pen and others think of this idea. Please feel free to flame me if you think that I am totally full of Chi.

Or if his teachers in Indonesia did? It's interesting; many people here try to relate short form to Tam Tui, but that's been debunked. In Sin The's deposition he testified under oath that he created the short kata, so your theory has traction. He said he based them on the idea of the 108 lohan forms, but that he didn't know the 108 and didn't know of anyone who did know them. I was always told that the 1-30 short form were a simplification of other material (later that material was identified as the 108). What I'm curious about is if the remaining vestiges of Ie Chang Ming's school teach "juras" or short form or whatever it's called. My teacher told me they did, but at the time I never followed up to see if that statement originated through what Sin The told him or from what he personally saw while in Indonesia in the early 90s.

Nice to meet you and thanks for the insight.

[bawang]

honest and transparent through the whole process with all of is students.

Given my current geographic location, I have 2 choices. I can continue my training and do the best that I can with it, try to supplement as much as I can, and enjoy it, given that I now know all of the shadiness of the lineage (which was ALWAYS suspect for me). Or I can ***** and moan, quit, and either do nothing or go to an MMA or TKD school. I have done both and would prefer not to go back to either of those. They just were not for me. Just my .02 Flame suit on. Proceed.

if you really are that scared of learning real kung fu fine. as long as you tell people you do karate, theres no problem.

I can totally understand your hillbilly town background. its been 40 years since the tv show, you just aren't motivated enough. and you feel disillusioned. you have invested so many years, and you cannot break out of it. I hope that in your next life you will find real kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

"real" kung fu?

lol, it's not an object Bawang. Kung fu is built in the individual. it doesn't come in a can and one man might have it but in no way can he fully impart it to another man, without the other man finding it in himself.


capice?

Honestly, I thought you knew this.