Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

The name for a male duck, are you Syn 7 then why do you respond. Fu2 KC

[Judge Pen]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

[taai gihk yahn]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

I think that this is the main point, which, for some reason, TTM seems to be contesting; while it is possible, it seems highly improbable; the evidence against it having come from a difference source includes:
1) Frank's assessment of the form and IDng of certain elements which mark the form as being an altered version from the form he knows; meaning that any form that looks like the DFW form (regardless of how it's played) can't possibly be from another source, bec. DFW's form is a deliberate alteration of the original
2) Sin The's obvious propensity for taking things from various sources and playing them off to a (back then) unsuspecting crowd of SD's - remember, even 10 yrs ago, it was much easier to get away with this sort of thing than it is now - go back 15, 20 yrs, and u cud wholesale rip off something and pass it off as ur own and no one would ever b the wiser;
3) The intrinsic ridiculousness of Sin The's lineage story, and the fact that for some reason there is no independent verification of that lineage outside of SD further destroys any credibility
4) the elaborate, convoluted explanations that SD supporters have to go through to substantiate their claims whenever they are challenged - it's like, in SD, the norm is the exception;

again, while it may b possible SD got this form "legitimately", the extant evidence strongly suggests that Sin The lifted the form from DFW's book at a time when most SD'rs probably had never even heard of DFW or CLF;

of course, if TTM just posts a vid of the opening of the form as he knows it, that wud certainly b of some help determining if it's the DFW version or another one...

[hskwarrior]

of course, if TTM just posts a vid of the opening of the form as he knows it, that wud certainly b of some help determining if it's the DFW version or another one...

we all know for a fact that JIM JONES won't put up a video because not only would it identify him, it would also show his level of skill in regards to this form. he can't produce it. too scared to.

[Syn7]

onc again, are you saying all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things?! How the fcuk would you know?!

UUMMMM no!
If I wanted to say "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things" I would have said.... oh I dunno.... something like "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things".

What I did say was "Your GM has no honor or integrity."

You need to start sorting out who said what to you. You are attributing all the criticisms to all of those making criticisms. That's some mental midget sh1t. Sort it out!

At this point you are choosing to side with somebody who lied to you to get your money. If you have another reason why SKT would lie like that and then only admit it when forced to, I will listen.

I see red flags all over SD, You have dozens of independent people with varying knowledge of TCMA, yet you still won't concede anything. NADA! That's another red flag. We don't know eachother, none of us are friends, yet we all say the same thing. Another HUGE red flag. Wake up....!!!

Like I said before, I'm sure there are guys that can fight from SD, and I know there are cats taking authentic TCMA styles that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. But why buy an overpriced pellet gun if you can get a AR-15 for half the price? Then atleast you increase the potential for the effort put in. Learning from SD is simply a less efficient way to learn. Your GM lied to you for money, it's probably more expensive than most TCMA schools, some of the teachers are accused sexual predators, the techniques are just taken from wherever and mishmashed together. I can go on, but surely that is enough, is it not?

[pazman]

Wut's your favorite Shaolin Do Kata?

[Empty_Cup]

... This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. ...

It's odd that you and TTM have different lyrics to the set...he has said the names of the techniques are much different from DFW's lyrics.

@TTM: Sent you a PM

[hskwarrior]

but surely that is enough, is it not?

JIM JONES will always be a cult drone.

[hskwarrior]

It's odd that you and TTM have different lyrics to the set...he has said the names of the techniques are much different from DFW's lyrics.

is it really odd? i mean check this scenario.

" i just bought dfw's shaolin five animal book. i really like this form. i want to even teach this form. but in order to try and disguise the fact i learned it from the book i will change only a few names of the moves, i'll rearrange a move here and there. no one in my school will ever know what i did."

how about we forget lyrics and just focus on the fukkin meat and potato's of the form. the exact same opening (done horribly and without knowledge of why), section by section the form is copied from the book. its really useless trying to find some loop hole you can attach to shaolin do.

shaolin do has no roots except indonesia. nothing in shaolin in the least. face up to it. open your eyes. listen to the rest of the martial art community. there's no reason for anyone to dislike your style aside from the fact you falsely claim it to have a shaolin connection.

how can you have so many pieces of so many styles and get it wrong? why don't you guys listen to the people who know more than? even still, a clear attempt at comparison will prove the fact.

this is no conspiracy against shaolin do. its the truth.

[Syn7]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

Does any of your money end up in SKT's pockets anymore? Do you continue to pay dues? Who is your Sifu?

I respect that you are willing to admit what others will not. We can be friends lol

[Syn7]

You should change your name to Sin 7, ur a ****, FU man FU. I defend no one I am who I am do not question my honor . KC

I just did. Show me I'm wrong and I will concede. Simple. I QUESTION your honor, but I'm str8 up sayin' SKT has none. I'm still up in the air about yours. Your inability to answer simple questions isn't helping tho. A man who defends another who has no honor tarnishes his own honor. That's on you son, not me.

LOL, As for your lil spazz moment. Shiiiiit, b1tch please.

You callin me a sinner? If you're gonna flip on my name, try to be at least a lil bit creative. Too easy. BTW, my name has nothing to do with the 7 deadly sins.


I wish everyone was that easy. Aye Drake!!!


And yes, I am a sinner. Who isn't....???

[Syn7]

The name for a male duck, are you Syn 7 then why do you respond. Fu2 KC

He isn't comming to my defence. Me and Drake argue over tons of sh1t. We just agree on this, and you.

[kwaichang]

I voted to close this thread, B read my old post from what I feel SD is , Then decide, , and C as you Judge so shall you be Judged. KC

[Old Noob]

I wanted to bump this to the top. Hadn't spent much forum time lately to read that particular thread, but I wondered that myself. Let me put some thougth into a more thorough response, but my knee jerk reaction is that it's either (1) Evidence of fabrication; or (2) at the least evidence of modification. I'm going to have an opportunity today to review a lot of my SD videos (and a few of the non-SD forms I've learned along the way) with a good friend and kung fu brother who has studied a more variety of styles than I have and who left SD before I quit training. I'll be sure to talk about this with him as well, but Sean can post his own thoughts on the subject.

I'll be interested to hear your obserations. At the end of the day the deposition is a morass and so its easy to construe what he said to mean that he made up almost all of the material to 1st black. Though its just as easily construed to mean that he made up the short forms and the sparring techniques and that's it. The cranes and the birds are lower belt material but don't contain any round kicks. Also, Haing The uses those forms in his curriculum and is, if I remember correctly, a bird expert??? Consequently, it seems less likely that those forms were made up by Sin The (though they could have been created by Master Ie). Anyway, I'm rambling but I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.

[Empty_Cup]

I'll be interested to hear your obserations. At the end of the day the deposition is a morass and so its easy to construe what he said to mean that he made up almost all of the material to 1st black. Though its just as easily construed to mean that he made up the short forms and the sparring techniques and that's it. The cranes and the birds are lower belt material but don't contain any round kicks. Also, Haing The uses those forms in his curriculum and is, if I remember correctly, a bird expert??? Consequently, it seems less likely that those forms were made up by Sin The (though they could have been created by Master Ie). Anyway, I'm rambling but I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.

ON, did you get my PM?