View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #15511
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    being proud maybe part of your problem.
    if you had a lineage like mine, you'd be proud too. i'm so happy we never had the tags of frauds, liars, sexual misconduct and the like. Lau Bun was called the Sage of the Martial World. Sin The is known for being a fraud.

    i know why im proud.

    We all understand what you are saying, it just doesn't matter to most people like it does to you. And saying the same things over and over isn't changing your results. SD has a lineage that is different than most because of the path it has traveled . Many schools an their lineage can and are questioned all the time. You should know this most of all.
    im still waiting for your proof. i know you are bluffing. but i'mma keep calling you out till you either admit you're whack or prove something. bluffin ass mo fo.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  2. #15512
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I get it. He either lied in the dep or he lied to his students. That makes him a liar who lacks integrity. Nothing difficult about it. Both options are unacceptable when it comes to somebody who is supposed to be a role model. It's even worse because he is selling this false image. This case isn't deep people. It's shallow as fukc. No confusion here.

    You do realize that words taken in deposition can be and are used in a court of law, right? Had the case gone all the way, those depositions would have been entered. FOR SURE.

    So why was the case settled? Who gave in and why? Was there a compromise?
    Funny, so you have never lied , had something you said be blown out of proportion or mistakenly given out information that wasnt true or correct? you must be an idiot or out of touch with reality, which is it?

  3. #15513
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    wow; that stuff suked so horribly, every last moment of it, words almost can't describe the craptacularity of those performances;

    and for once, the old SD saw of "well, those people demoing weren't representative of SD" doesn't hold water, bec those were demos Sin The participated in; meaning that the people he had demo were who he thought best represented the system; and they suked; and they look like pretty much the way all other SD forms on YT look as well...

    and that form of Sin The doing the crutches - MY GOD - there were times in that form he clearly wasn't sure what move he was doing next! pathetic...



    Here is what really happens when SD practitioners meet to fight each other:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GugeH9xd9zE
    obviously you can do better. those videos are for fun and for the families of SD.. doing demos and being a performer are two different things...you must have got picked on or worse growing up....you all take these little bits of nothing and read way too much into it or not enough, just stupid.

  4. #15514
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    if you had a lineage like mine, you'd be proud too. i'm so happy we never had the tags of frauds, liars, sexual misconduct and the like. Lau Bun was called the Sage of the Martial World. Sin The is known for being a fraud.

    i know why im proud.



    im still waiting for your proof. i know you are bluffing. but i'mma keep calling you out till you either admit you're whack or prove something. bluffin ass mo fo.
    its made you blind and arrogant. I dont care what your lineage is or who you are. you expect everyone to bow down to that? really? thats just ridiculous.

  5. #15515
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    its made you blind and arrogant. I dont care what your lineage is or who you are. you expect everyone to bow down to that? really? thats just ridiculous.
    of course you don't. But, i will forever take ME over being you, ya fraud. just like SIN THE, you made a wildly outrageous claim that you have the proof to prove me wrong about our 5 animal shaolin form. but just like Sin The, you failed.

    we've seen your lineages sparring, forms, and weapons. most of your leaders need tons of work. no one in the kung fu community is impressed. we're actually cringing when we watch.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  6. #15516
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    oh you're asking him if he'd ever done what you did. cool.
    I think everyone does or has...

  7. #15517
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Funny, so you have never lied , had something you said be blown out of proportion or mistakenly given out information that wasnt true or correct? you must be an idiot or out of touch with reality, which is it?
    Sure I've lied. TONS. But I have never lied on that level to so many people for profit. I have never lied as a mentor. I have never lied to people in order to give a fraudulent financial venture more credibility on a long term basis. This went on for YEARS!!! If it wasn't for the legal drama and the net, he'd still be lying. In fact I would bet the farm that he is still lying. I have never lied to parents of children who trust me to be honest about what I am teaching to their kids. It's just not the same thing. If something I said gets blown out of proportion I do not go with it for my own benefit. I correct the incorrect info IMMEDIATELY....!!! I have done many things that are wrong, but not that. I couldn't even be bothered to argue with Sin The himself. As far as I'm concerned the guy is a complete train wreck write off. It's the victims that I am interested in. And I can honestly say that I have never EVER stuck up for somebody who disrespected me like that. Regardless of their value. NEVER! There are so many options out there, why side with a liar when you can just hop skip and jump across the street to somebody who is honest to you and respects you enough to not bullsh1t you in order to build up credibility for the purposes of lil dikc syndrome and financial gain. What is so difficult about that?

    I'm tired of repeating myself. You all should know the famous Einstein insanity quote(you can google it KC and TTM). I don't expect some of you to give ground. I stay for the ones that have. The ones that are willing to admit fault on occasion. You know, the real men. Like JP. I wanna understand this loyalty. I have my theories, but I'm always open to new ideas.

  8. #15518
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    i'm still waiting for your proof.

    tik tok tik tok tik tok tic tok tic tok
    We should start a pool. Try to guess how many he finds. Then guess how many are HSCLF or are ex HSCLF or learned from a CLF cat, how many are SD or ex SD or affiliated in some way or another, and how many got it from DFWs book. Am I missing any options?

  9. #15519
    jesus christ people are you really having this conversation in two different threads? PICK ONE

  10. #15520
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I get it. He either lied in the dep or he lied to his students. That makes him a liar who lacks integrity. Nothing difficult about it. Both options are unacceptable when it comes to somebody who is supposed to be a role model. It's even worse because he is selling this false image. This case isn't deep people. It's shallow as fukc. No confusion here.

    You do realize that words taken in deposition can be and are used in a court of law, right? Had the case gone all the way, those depositions would have been entered. FOR SURE.

    So why was the case settled? Who gave in and why? Was there a compromise?
    No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

    To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

    My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

    I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.
    Last edited by Old Noob; 10-19-2012 at 06:27 AM.

  11. #15521
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Personally, I don't really care about SD as a style and whether it is effective or not. I wouldn't bother with it, but that's just me. My whole interest is in the Stockholm thing going on. How people would show loyalty to somebody who lied to them, whether directly or indirectly.

    You people really need to start writing sh1t down and taking notes if you can't keep who said what separated in your mind. We don't all have the same arguments and we don't all agree with eachother 100% all the time. We all just think SD is fukced up for one reason or another.

    Lumping us all in one HATER category shows a complete lack of understanding and a general inability to sort out the arguments being put to you and addressing them individually.

    The only generalizations I make about ALL SD students is that they all show or or showed allegiance to somebody who lied to them. This is insane to me. OK, so if you didn't know, I get that. But now you know. WTF?

    I honestly believe that because some have put so much time into SD that they validate staying on board in one way or another in order to not have to face some very simple facts. If that's insulting, so be it. I am not sorry. But I will and have been listening. Some make sense, some are just backsliding slowly into their own oblivion.
    Some of us are paying attention and responding to specific points.

    I am loyal to my Sifu. The very vast majority of the time, my being an SD practitioner does not require me to partake of the BS. On the one occasion that the GM has visited my school, I attended testing and his seminar, mostly out of respect for my Sifu (and because I wanted to see the man who had generated this 1000-page thread), and then when he left I went right back to training. I've only been to Lexington once (to watch friends test) and don't go to their tournaments and demos. I like the art and my Sifu's expression of it. I like my school. I think the origin story is bunk but whatever. I don't take martial arts for a story.

  12. #15522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Noob View Post
    No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

    To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

    My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

    I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.
    Good post. This is my current thinking as well. I'm still open to the idea that it originated in the temple but since there is almost no information to prove that argument it's pointless to speculate.

  13. #15523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I get it. He either lied in the dep or he lied to his students. That makes him a liar who lacks integrity. Nothing difficult about it. Both options are unacceptable when it comes to somebody who is supposed to be a role model. It's even worse because he is selling this false image. This case isn't deep people. It's shallow as fukc. No confusion here.

    You do realize that words taken in deposition can be and are used in a court of law, right? Had the case gone all the way, those depositions would have been entered. FOR SURE.

    So why was the case settled? Who gave in and why? Was there a compromise?
    Of course I realize that. Party depositions can be used as either substantive evidence or for impeachment purposes. Some of us are licensed attorneys. The point was this lawsuit wasn't about proving from a legal sense whether or not SD was fraudulent. It was a copyright enforcement claim that was settled (probably because Sin The finally realized he can't win this case but as settlements do not have to be disclosed and can be designated confidential I can't say for certain.). What it did was prove that Sin The lied. What was the lie and what was the truth and what are the real origins of SD? The deposition doesn't prove anything but only adds more fuel to the fire for us on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #15524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I don't expect some of you to give ground. I stay for the ones that have. The ones that are willing to admit fault on occasion. You know, the real men. Like JP. I wanna understand this loyalty. I have my theories, but I'm always open to new ideas.
    What do you want to know? Why I started SD? Why I quit the first time? Why I went back to it? Why I'm not training in it now? I'm pretty sure I've answered all these questions in the course of the dialouge, but I'm all about having constructive conversations.

    As far as admitting fault, I fall back on the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #15525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Noob View Post
    No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

    To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

    My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

    I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.
    Very well said. I'll add to it that I think much of it was modified based on Sin The's personal talents and skills and what he liked, didn't like or what he thought his students could learn at the time. Remember, early on the curriculim was smaller and focused more on conditioning and fighting. I think later, after financial difficulty, he started teaching more and more forms and probably using other's materials and calling it his own in order to keep up with the demand for more forms.

    I think if you look at his brother's site, you will see a smaller curriculim. What overlaps there was probably the material that Sin The was actually taught in Indonesia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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