Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does a ground dragon form.

[Judge Pen]

I can't find an example of Sin The doing a good form. I never thought his form, from what I've seen, was all that good.

The ground dragon form was really good. Your point about it being comparable to open style karate players or wushu is well taken. But it is an SD guy doing an SD form well (which seems to be like a unicorn sighting anymore).

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does the same ground dragon form.

[Crushing Step]

I can't find an example of Sin The doing a good form. I never thought his form, from what I've seen, was all that good.

I might be wrong, as I visit the KFM forums very sporadically over the years, but I thought you were not only a SD guy but one of it's defenders? I read earlier on that you're not in SD anymore, but I do have one question. If The never looked good doing a form, what was it that kept you in SD?

[Judge Pen]

I might be wrong, as I visit the KFM forums very sporadically over the years, but I thought you were not only a SD guy but one of it's defenders? I read earlier on that you're not in SD anymore, but I do have one question. If The never looked good doing a form, what was it that kept you in SD?

Yes I was an SD guy for over 20 years and I defended it as much as anyone can. I still defend many aspects of it. It is a solid martial art in terms of teaching fundamental concepts and applicaple fighting aspects. I kept training in Sd because my teachers were good people that taught well and it was better than any alternatives that I had available to me. I don't train in SD anymore because of orthopedic reasons. If my hip were 100% than I would still be working out with many of my SD brothers. I would probably be training in other things, but there's material in SD that I will always keep and train in. I will teach my children things I learned from SD.

As far as forms work, it was always my weakest element in the martial arts. I would oftne wipe the floor sparring the best "forms" people that I knew. I can appreciate that someone can be a good martial artist and not be the best forms person. Because my teachers respected Sin The (mainly for his fighting ability that I heard of anecdotally) then I respected him. But frankly the lies and bogus history overwhelmed even my strong sense of loyalty.

[Snipsky]

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

his movement is nicer than that guy jake. but the guy has karate feel about his movement. smooth, but karate-sh. i think its also a make up form. jake makes it sound like shaolin do has fut gar inside it. i would pray they don't claim this too.

[Judge Pen]

his movement is nicer than that guy jake. but the guy has karate feel about his movement. smooth, but karate-sh. i think its also a make up form. jake makes it sound like shaolin do has fut gar inside it. i would pray they don't claim this too.

I believe that the Buddha Fist form is Kung Tao in origin. That may mean CMA and JMA influence. I don't necessarily think this is shaolin, but I don't think it is "made up" either.

[Empty_Cup]

...

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does the same ground dragon form.

I only watched the Buddha Fist portion. Interesting expression of this form. There are a number of moves that look a lot different from how I practice it.

Being taiji, it's hard to say how he would have looked demonstrating that form at a more normal (slower) pace. To Snipsky's point it looks a little rigid in the transitions but I think when trying to speed up taiji it tends to look that way.

[Empty_Cup]

I believe that the Buddha Fist form is Kung Tao in origin. That may mean CMA and JMA influence. I don't necessarily think this is shaolin, but I don't think it is "made up" either.

Just for reference we had been discussing it here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=64351&page=4

As OTD mentioned it was taught in 1974 and then demonstrated by the White Lotus society in Bandung during the 1992 visit.

I haven't seen Jake's video but don't really feel like opening up a can of worms by including him in this discussion. He's obviously decided to go his own way.

[shen ku]

JP thanks for pointing out the video, i was at that one in 93. I had a lot of fun and got my butt handed to me..... oh the fun

[Syn7]

It is understandable to see students of all levels and it is ignorant to make fun of people who do their best but just haven't put in enough time to be very good yet.

That being said, a lot of these guys were wearing BB's and sucked donkey c0ck.

Can somebody pull out an SD vid as a fine example of what one could expect to look like after acquiring a high rank?

I can show you vids of kids at my school that suck, no doubt. I can also show vids of our lineage that is something to be proud of.

Just search CLC Bak Mei on you tube and if you can't find a great example it's coz your bias is keeping you from digging properly. If you want to find horrible examples of CLC Bak Mei, you will find those too. But my point is that there are a sh1tt ton of great examples. I have yet to see even ONE SD vid that didn't make me cringe.

That's not directed at you JP, not specifically anyways. I respect your honesty and appreciate your candid responses. Regardless of what I think of SD and it's quality, you seem like a good guy.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not claiming it is part of fut gar; I've never been told that and it doesn't look like the fut gar that I've seen demonstrated in the past. I think "Buddha Family Fist" is a generic term and does not mean "SD also claims to teach Fut Gar". I think Empty Cup nailed it when he said leave Jake out of the discussion because he has gone his own way and who knows what he is claiming; He's making it up as he goes. All I know about "Buddha fist" (as it's always ben called by my teachers) is that according to OTD (who has been around for years) he was first taught this form in 1974 and it was practiced, independantly in Indonesia (meaning from the same school as Sin The but not under Sin The's direction). The fairy tale about the hairy monk aside (as that's obvioulsy made up) Sin The learned from Ie Chang Ming and other "collegues" in Indonesia. As I understand it, each brought their own specialty to the table. No wonder SD is a mish-mash of forms. This may be made up, I don't know of anyone outside of SD or Indonesia that practice this form, but it was not made up by Sin The.

Garry Mullins, the performer in the video, was one of my main teachers. He did not learn the form in 1974. He went to Indonesia in 1992 and saw others performing this form and then asked Sin The if he could learn it after seeing it demoed by the students in Indonesia. I've seen other good Sd people, but I think Garry Mullins as one of the best.

[Judge Pen]

fut ga is a distinctive southern mid to short-hand system that is supposedly a relatively recent hybridized system based largely on choi and hung family fist; regardless, what I have seen of it over the years looks nothing like anything SD does, including that form;

I don't think this form is fut ga. SD isn't claiming the form is Fut Ga. "Buddha family" or "Buddha fist" are very generic terms and can be associated with any number of forms from any number of systems that are not Fut Ga.

[Judge Pen]

Can somebody pull out an SD vid as a fine example of what one could expect to look like after acquiring a high rank?

I did above. The performer is Garry Mullins who is one of my main teachers and does SD as well as anyone. I have lots of videos of him doing good stuff, but I only posted to that one because I don't have his permission to put him doing SD on the internet and that video was already on youtube. The video was in 1993. He is in his 50s now and still as good as he was (maybe better) in that video. KC put up another example of a Texas BB doing the ground dragon form on the SD thread. He is a little more athletic and shown than Mullins but he's not as good overall.

We can pick apart the flavor of Mullins' technique (karateish etc.) but that's what SD is.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXj...feature=relmfu

At 4:10 you will see Garry Mullins and his two sons doing some forms. The first form is Golden Tiger. The performer is Mike Mullins (who was my teacher from 2002 through 2009).

The second form/performer is Kevin Mullins. I'm not sure of the form he was doing. It was probably a white crane form (maybe 15th Crane as I never learned that one). Objectively he was sloppy and trying to emphasize the big movements. He was also fairly young there (19 or 20) I've seen him do much better and think he has improved. Finally we have Garry Mullins doing the ground dragon again.

Right after that you have Mike Reid from Atlanta doing a drunken spear form. When watching that video keep in mind this is a former linebacker for the Atlanta Falcons who is 6'3 and at least 250lbs so while I've seen some people move better, they are usually under 6 foot and 200 lbs.

In each of these two videos he doesn't do the complete form and he skips around for the demo, but it gives you an idea of what is high level SD from my opinion.

[taai gihk yahn]

that's what SD is.

and "what SD is", in my estimation, is a combination of 3 things: stuff Sin The actually learned back in Indonesia (which was probably a mix of stuff from China, Japan and Indonesia); stuff he took from books / tapes and co-opted wholesale; stuff he "made up" based on what he thought people wanted and their ignorance of what TCMA really is;

all of which is fine, as long as one is honest about it (for example, the sword form I linked to, I made it up); the problem is when u fabricate a lineage / origin story (and it's a brilliant one - the more implausible something seems, the more peope are willing to buy it - PT Barnum would have been proud!) and ascribe content dishonestly to a given source; that just means you are a cynical jerk, preying on people's credulous simplicities (I can't help but picture Sin The chuckling to himself about how his students will believe just any old thing he says / does; altho, at this point, he may actually believe his own schtick - in the words of the great George Costanza, "it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth";

one way (of many) to tell is the names of the forms: they sound "kung fu-ish", but are actually names you never find elsewhere in legitimate TCMA - for example, "ground dragon" is ridiculous - there is no such thing as a ground dragon in Chinese mythos - dragons fly or swim, they are celestial creatures - they don't walk / crawl on the floor - that's what snakes do (also, there is nothing in that form that characterizes dragon, but that's neither here nor there);

as for the Buddha fist set being "internal" - it's all wrong - there's nothing in that form that relates to classical 'internal' practice at all - just doing moves slowly and sticking your leg out at odd angles and holding it there and them coming into some crossed leg stances doesn't make it internal; internal practice has very specific aspects, and that form doesn't fulfill a single one;

it's fraud guys, pure and simple;