Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Brad]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/i...wins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war

[cerebus]

AAAAAAHHH !!! BLEAH!! *Vomits on keyboard*

[Golden Tiger]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/i...wins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war

...............

[kwaichang]

My appologies true my math skills are rather poor. you started in 79 right?? So if you practiced consistently by my standard that would be at least 15 hours per week that would make 26 years in 2005. 3 years in Hsing Ie and other systems prior to that most of which is Japanese or Brazilian maybe. Not too bad junior.
Ok here goes. Started in Isshinryu in 1971, Trained in Hung Gar and Tang Lang from latter 71- 82 privately, took SD for 1 year that year, had to stop due to time. In 78 began cross training in Aikido and Shotokan all instruction from Uchi Deshi or 6thdan and up, cont for 14 years that brings us up to 92 been in SD since 92 i think this is close to correct. any way a total of 34-35 years this August. Fought professionally with PKA and boxing as well. Not ranked. I worked out and trained the world welter weight Kick Boxing Champ of 1983-87 EM . There is more but dont want to brag and you wouldnt believe it any way. I dont have any papers showing what I did. Have a wonderful day.
If you want the whole story Ill e-mail it to you. KC

[The Willow Sword]

Well i can corroborate some of what KC is saying about his background. And none of you here know me as a liar(hehe except for those who think i am lying )

KC is one of the few people at Sd that i actually got along with and that i actually consider a friend(he may not have as much affection towards me but i dont really care)
Amidst his jabs and stabs here on the forums he is actually a good guy,,,. But you dont have to take my word for it. He is happy with where he is i think.

PEACE,,TWS

[The Willow Sword]

OK i want this to be the last thing i post herein this thread. so here goes.

i think most of us here are not saying that SD is NOT a martial art and could be ineffective in fighting and such. people debate this over and over here in these threads and the truth of the matter is that it really doesnt matter what you study be it TKD or JKD or JMA and such. The fight itself and the skill therein lies with the individual and what he/she chooses to utilize.

Some here will debate martial principles until they are blue in the face,,,comparing CMA principles with JMA principles and such and we will all have our own opinions on it.

i think what most here get down on sd about are the "claims" and the "history" that it makes for itself. There is a plethera of information to counter the history claims that SD makes. The history in shaolin and the supposed southern shaolin.
we can debate things here until this thread chokes the bandwidth.

i did my research after i left because i wanted to see why it was that so many harped on sd and i wanted to find out things for myself and i did find a glaring contradiction and that lies with the picture if "SU Kong" i discovered that this is not who SD claims him to be. my proof? the pictures i have posted here and the other picture that tells who this person was(Li Baoshu) as they ARE the same individual.

Now the picture of "li Baoshu" who is named by SD "su kong tai jin". the mystery still remains as to where that picture is.(some say it is in a PT barnum book about circus oddities and some say it is in a guiness book on freaks of nature and such)and where? well,,that is to be determined. I know where i was told it was,,but i am not going to reveal that here.

as for the other picture of Li boashu(the head shot that is messy looking and not all groomed) is from this book:
(Liu Mingyu et al (eds), Zhongguo maoren
(Hairy men of China), Shenyang: Liaoning kexue jishu chubanshe, 1982)

and you can find this book at any decent university with a section on china. now i have not seen that book in person,,this is what was told to me about the author who used that pic in his study of genetics and hair in china.

This doesnt set right with me,,these findings i discovered,,for if you base your work and life on a fabrication,,what ELSE have you fabricated? to me it is deeply distrubing and did not wish to be a part of that organization any longer.

as for my personal issue with the school i trained at? yes i have one.
When you say that you are going to do something YOU DO IT. Your word is your bond. My "ego" was not deflated as some say,,,i got screwed to preserve someone ELSES EGO,in my opinion. and that doesnt set right with me. it shows a lack of integrity and shows me how i was really viewed at the school by the main teacher, and no way was i about to continue to be at a place where i was never welcomed or honored in the first place. enough said on that.

thats all i have left to say on this thread,,take it as you will,,think what you want.
Peace,,TWS

[kwaichang]

Wow Willow I think you are being honest with us and your self so you are basing everything you think solely on the physical proof of the pics you found is that right. kc

[Judge Pen]

I like Willow, but we have debated the Lai Boashi picture to death. Heck it's not even a consensus among the non-SDers that the two are the same. Williow is convinced they ARE the same person, but the only proof outside of the two debatable pictures are the use of "all-cap" to illustrate his point.

Not that I even know that Su Kong really existed. I never met him. Heck, Sin The never met him either. Maybe it's true maybe it's false, but what one believes to be true and what one can prove to be true are often miles apart.

This thread will never end. It's tiresome and the entertainment value has worn out.

[cerebus]

Hello KC. Well, if I'd wanted to belabor the point I could have mentioned much more than just the bare bones listed in my profile, but I'm not going to bother.

The question I have for you is this: if all you say about your training background is true, how can you possibly NOT see that SD isn't traditional Chinese martial arts? If even I (with my small amount of experience) find it to be so obvious, how is it you can be so easily fooled? If you have such extensive training in Praying Mantis Kung Fu, how can you watch Sin The's performance of his "Mantis" forms and not see how bad it is? Really, are you just turning a blind eye or can you truly not discern what it is you're seeing?

[kwaichang]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

[kwaichang]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc

[Judge Pen]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

KC, they are referring to this:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form. That's not to say all of SD mantis is like this. I've seen some mantis that isn't devoid of these things, but this is what was available on the internet.

For an example, compare it to this:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=tanglangshou

This is Jake Burroughs (Three Harmonies). I took "White Ape steals the peach" from him last year. I've compared it to SD's version. It was the same form played differently. To my eye, it wasn't grossly different. I've seen probably 5 versions of this form either in person or from the net, and they are all played differently.

The problem with 99.9% (myslef included sadly) of SD is that we learn too many different forms so that the distinguishing hallmarks of the different styles are often lost or blended together. Not that they aren't taught. Heck, not that the underlying drills and training aren't taugth either. But before we can really get it down, we move on to something else. It's not that the principles ren't there, it's that the majority of students don't put the time in. It's not a problem exclusive to SD, but SD is the (endless) debate at hand. I've seen some very good schools with iron clad lineages fall victim to the same problem.

[norther practitioner]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc

there are some better clips of shaolin around..

unless you are looking to show the acrobatics side.

[cerebus]

Personally I have seen the Shaolin Monks version of Mantis, Contemporary Wushu Mantis, Seven-star Mantis, and I think it was Eight-Steps Mantis. All of these had similar "Mantis" body movement and footwork (though overly exaggerated in the Monks and the Wushu case).

I've also seen clips of SD's versions of Drunken Boxing, Tiger Boxing and Hsing-I (as well as having seen the traditional Chinese Versions of these arts). Most were from different schools, all from supposed high-ranking blackbelts and it was a similar experience in each case. They were doing the motions, but their method of body movement and power expression looked like they were doing Karate, not Kung Fu.

I also have an aquaintance who was a black belt in SD many years ago and have discussed this with him. He felt the same way after having seen some traditional Chinese instructors demonstrate their arts. He initially tried to train with a variety of CMA instructors to put into his SD forms what they were lacking (the particular styles of body movement and power generation which are different for each of these arts) but gave it up as a lost cause and began training in an authentically Chinese art (Yin style Bagua). When I met him he'd been training in Yin Bagua for about two years and was amazed at the depth to be found in traditional Bagua as opposed to what he had learned in SD.

Once again, I'm not saying SD is not a good art in it's own way, but I am saying that it ISN'T a Chinese Martial art. I think Karate is a good art, I think Kenpo is a good art (I've trained in both). But if a practitioner of either of those arts tried to claim them to be traditional Chinese Kung Fu, I'd have to call them on it (sometimes the "Shaolin Kempo" guys try to advertise themselves as being "Kung Fu", ).

Anyway, over the years I've seen many Karate practitioners learn a Chinese form for a tournament. They learn the external techniques and all that, but the only power generation and body-movement method they have is from Karate and it shows. This is exactly what it looks like to me whenever I see a clip of an SD practitioner doing a form.

[Golden Tiger]

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form.

This clip is often refered to and mistaken for "Enters the Door". Actually, it is bits of Tang Lang Chien that was filmed FOR A MOVIE TEST TRAILER. Nothing more, nothing less. It was done to have the essence of Mantis and a tad of flash added in. It is a good representation of the Tang Lang forms that were taught out many moons ago but is nothing like the Mantis seminars taught a few years back.

I will agree with most that TOO much material is taught out too quickly. Its the classic "quality vs quantity" problem. But, thats the nature of the beast. Either you like it that way or you don't.