Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[wenshu]

I have to say, sir, you've done a lot better than that in your critiques before. You act like you've discovered some big secret. Sin The's school was called "Sin The Karate School," and even "Shaolin Karate-Do", starting back in the 60's. Back then I suspect if he called it "kung fu" no one would have known what he was talking about, but "karate" was not unheard of. I would also suspect back then more people, when they heard the word "karate," thought of Asian martial arts in general, and didn't know karate from judo. Although I wasn't there and have no authority for this, I've always theorized that GMT's school in Indonesia didn't get all hung up on what they called their "style," i.e. "kung fu" or anything else, and so when he started his classes in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 60's, he just picked a name (or more accurately a "word") that back then was synonymous with "martial arts" in general, and he didn't care (or more likely didn't think about) people complaining, 50 years later, that it's not really "karate" in the sense of coming from Japan or Okinawa. Or maybe, with all the other Japanese traditions observed (uniforms like gi's, belts, "dan" ranking, "kata," etc.), the word "karate" was used in Indonesia, too.

And not knowing the difference was not just Kentucky. Here's soem trivia: read "Goldfinger," first published in the 50's, Ian Fleming talks about Oddjob's mastery of Karate like no one had ever heard of it, comparing it to judo "like a Howitzer is to a flyswatter," or something like that. (Fleming did the same thing in introducing Ninjitsu in "You Only Live Twice" a few years later; I think maybe the first Western mention of it in literature?).

But just saying "karate" on a sign or label doesn't mean it has its origins in Japanese or Okinawan arts. Of course you and many others have complained that using the word "Shaolin" in the same sign and label is bogus. If there is some karate elements in it, or it just looks that way to some people from some examples of its practitioners, that is one thing, but a word picked 50 years ago does not make it so.

Or maybe he called it "Sin The's Karate School" because he was teaching karate.

[-N-]

Holy cr4p...

Looks like he stole that from a bad Shaw brothers trailer.

[-N-]

Need some eye bleach after that gif.

http://eyebleach.com/

You are welcome.

[kwaichang]

When Funakoshi moved from Okinawa to Japan and started teaching Kara Te" empty hand" he changed the 1st kanji from China Hand to Karate to make it more palatable for the Japanese. He was teaching China Hand M/A justa thought was he wrong in doing that as well ? KC

[kwaichang]

What does that mean and is that the best u can do to my question? KC

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCcMY...feature=relmfu

This is our beginner level Dao form. I'm assuming that these videos are from the 1992 Indonesia trip where SD people trained and demonstrated with the students from the school that remained in Bangdung. Regardless, I learved this form before this video was taken and it has been a staple in SD curriculim for several years.

Unfortunately, these videos of SD material being performed in Indonesia by students who did not lear from Sin The have been removed. That is unfortunate because these videos are very instructive on what SD is and is not. What you would see is a hybrid style of kung fu and other elements mixed with indigenous Indonesian martial principles. It would be just as inaccurate to simply throw a label on it as "Karate" as it would be to call it "shaolin kung fu". It may have elements of CMA, IMA and even JMA, but it is its own style.

They are his videos and he could take them down if he wanted, but I personally don't think there was a good reason to do so and wish they would have stayed up.

[Empty_Cup]

Unfortunately, these videos of SD material being performed in Indonesia by students who did not lear from Sin The have been removed. That is unfortunate because these videos are very instructive on what SD is and is not. What you would see is a hybrid style of kung fu and other elements mixed with indigenous Indonesian martial principles. It would be just as inaccurate to simply throw a label on it as "Karate" as it would be to call it "shaolin kung fu". It may have elements of CMA, IMA and even JMA, but it is its own style.

They are his videos and he could take them down if he wanted, but I personally don't think there was a good reason to do so and wish they would have stayed up.

Which elements in your opinion are distinctively Indonesian?

[wenshu]

Which elements in your opinion are distinctively Indonesian?

The Karate.

Before Sin The and his students added Chinese forms learned from books and videos it was just Karate from Indonesia.

[Jimbo]

When Funakoshi moved from Okinawa to Japan and started teaching Kara Te" empty hand" he changed the 1st kanji from China Hand to Karate to make it more palatable for the Japanese. He was teaching China Hand M/A justa thought was he wrong in doing that as well ? KC

Karate is not just a variation of CMA, but also mixed with Tode, or Ti, an indigenous Okinawan MA. Karate itself was looked down upon in during its early days in Japan, not seen as a true 'budo' as the native 'mainland' Japanese arts of Kendo, Judo, etc., etc.

[Jimbo]

I believe it was considered a type of art that was more 'violent' and from a coarser pedigree. Its Chinese association also did not help. Also, Okinawans in general were often looked down upon by mainland Japanese at that time. Okinawa was seen as a primitive backwater.

In reality, Jujutsu went through its own period of poor reputation among many Japanese as an art mainly for gangsters. Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu.

[pazman]

Wow! Praying Mantis! What is the name of this Preying Mantis Kata? Looks very powerful and traditional. At point can Shaolin Do students use the fearsome Mantis Poke in the Ippon Kumite?

[pazman]

These moves are very deceptive. They might lead opponents to think that he forgot what he is doing. Smart strategy!

[Judge Pen]

The Karate.

Before Sin The and his students added Chinese forms learned from books and videos it was just Karate from Indonesia.

Did you see the videos or are you just talking out of you arse?

[Judge Pen]

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

Sal Canzonieri quote from another forum in discussing a video of Gary Grooms doing the "Buddha Fist" form which was one of the forms demonstrated by one of the Indonesian students in Bandung in 1992.

[wenshu]

Post any video performance of any Shaolin-Do Chinese form and I am willing to bet that we can find the book or video series it was lifted from.