Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

It's called buying a phrase book and a plane ticket. That's what I did, as have others on this forum. Best decision of my life.

Going to another country and learning some martial arts is not some exotic, mysterious thing.

I'd love to go back in time and do that, but at 37 and a partner at a lawfirm with a wife, two small children, my in-laws and 2 dogs all dependant upon me, that's not a luxury I have. Good for you for doing it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Sorry, when I say lineage I have a very precise meaning...I mean that you can trace a line of transmission, person by person, back to some origin. There are more than a few traditional Japanese martial arts schools that can trace an historically verifiable lineage going back hundreds of years. It's very difficult to say the same for most styles of Karate. For example, Kanbun Uechi did study authentic gongfu in China, but the exact school and style are lost to history.

I doubt very much you'll find any karate school that can claim a lineage back to the Shaolin Temple, and any Karate teacher will say the same.

Doshin So is another topic altogether, but any Shorinji Kenpo person I've ever talked to were very clear in stating that the naming is out of respect, not to imply that their method comes from Shaolin Gongfu.

That's kind of what I was getting at, I just wasn't clear. Probably the majority of Okinawan Karate can't trace it's lineage ****her back than their original Chinese teacher, I'd be surprised at any that could prove it past the Chinese Sigung.

For instance, Go Ju Ryu...Chojun Miyagi, student of Kanryo Higaonna, student of Ryu Ryu Ko (chinese), student of Shaolin Temple Arts....

Someone may have more information, if that's inaccurate I apologize, but that's kind of the general Karate family tree one is likely to see in traditional Okinawan Karate.

[Leto]

There are two different discussions/arguments going on here, for some reason the "haters" aren't getting the position most of us are in, though we have stated it over and over again. Most of us here are not defending Sin The. We are apalled by how he has lied and recognize that a lot of the material he has taught was not learned or taught by him properly, and some of it he invented.
However, we learned the material from his system, that's a fact. We have this material now, wherever it came from, what to do with it? Personally, I want to find out where it came from and how it would be performed as authentic Chinese martial arts, or as "authentic" kun tao, or whatever it really is. Some of the forms are obvious, like the five animal form, tiger crane, four roads of hua, the northern praying mantis material and the internal material. We can find out where those forms are from and find people teaching those styles and learn how they would really be performed, they are clearly Chinese forms.
But there is a whole bunch of other material which is not obvious exactly where it came from. Wanting to find out the origins of the material I learned and to learn a more effective way to perform/use it is not defending shaolin do or Sin The. In fact, it is just the opposite, it means I do not trust anything I was taught by the students/devotees of Sin The. I just feel there is some value in the material, despite the method with which it was passed to me, and will make it work. If it is all "made up sh**", then I will make it the best "made up sh**" I possibly can. For the record, I don't believe it was all made up by Sin The, I think he lied in that deposition in order to justify his copyright claim. I think he made up a few forms in order to flesh out an originally sparse curriculum (what he learned as a teenager before coming to the US), before he started teaching material from books. So far, no judge has felt his copyright claim is enforceable.

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif). It never looked or felt right to me, and I never bothered practicing it after I learned it. After learning Zhai Yao, and a Bi Men Tang Lang two person set (which I think is a version of Beng Bu), I knew it wasn't really mantis, it just didn't fit. This makes me think it likely was invented by Sin The, again trying to flesh out his material in the early days. I think he knew the Lohan Chien form, which might have been made up by one of his teachers as an introduction to PM, and tried to extrapolate from that based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks). He never had time to learn the actual mantis system of his school, but later he found instruction books on various PM forms and taught them as special seminars. It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book. Or that he isn't terribly literate in Chinese characters. Or that he hand copied the text from a book, and then later couldn't read his own handwriting.)

[tattooedmonk]

how about this instead?

[hskwarrior]

AND YOU BELIEVE THIS IS IN SPECIFIC REFERENCE TO MY LINEAGES FORM AND NO ONE ELSES HUH?

[Lucas]

wow, ignorance at its finest.

do tell....mr. classy....

choshin was an accomplished martial artist, who studied directly under anko itosu. he developed shorin ryu in the later part of his career, based of his in depth knowledge of okinawan martial arts, and combined that knowledge with chinese martial arts, and payed honor and homage to shaolin due to such. noted as one of the last pre war karate masters.

sin the lied to everyone, learned from books, passed on forms he didnt even fully understand, can be seen perfoming horribly and even forgetting his material. lied in court under oath, lied to everyone constantly, uses the name shaolin just because he made his stuff up (as stated by a shaolin do person recently in this thread)

no comparison.

[tattooedmonk]

never said anything ... thats your problem , you assume everything based on your own perception and very little fact... or skill to back it up.

[Leto]

That's kind of what I was getting at, I just wasn't clear. Probably the majority of Okinawan Karate can't trace it's lineage ****her back than their original Chinese teacher, I'd be surprised at any that could prove it past the Chinese Sigung.

In fact, most don't even have any firm information on the Chinese teachers. We have Okinawan pronounciations or nicknames for the Chinese teachers, and sort of anecdotal stories about who they were and what they taught. But nothing firm in the way of an actual lineage document or actual characters for their names. Some researchers believe they have found links to some historical Chinese teachers, mainly on the naha te/goju ryu side. As far as shorin ryu goes, we've got "kusanku", "chinto", "wanshu", "annan", etc...the identity of any of those people, if they existed, is uncertain. I am sure Chinese teachers really existed, we just don't know who they really were or what they taught. However, it is clear to me that shorin ryu has links to northern shaolin, as well as southern styles. Most likely a mix of skills taught by various Chinese teachers (some of whom were northern shaolin, some southern) over the years combined with the Okinawan's practical experience and indigenous Te.

[hskwarrior]

Where is that devastating evidence you claimed you were in possession of in regards to the lau bun family 5 animal form. So where the fak is it?
Bullsh1tter. Mr big lies. Mr. Bluffinator.

where is that devastating evidence you claimed you were in possession of in regards to the lau bun family 5 animal form.

[tattooedmonk]

do tell....mr. classy....

choshin was an accomplished martial artist, who studied directly under anko itosu. he developed shorin ryu in the later part of his career, based of his in depth knowledge of okinawan martial arts, and combined that knowledge with chinese martial arts, and payed honor and homage to shaolin due to such. noted as one of the last pre war karate masters.

sin the lied to everyone, learned from books, passed on forms he didnt even fully understand, can be seen perfoming horribly and even forgetting his material. lied in court under oath, lied to everyone constantly, uses the name shaolin just because he made his stuff up (as stated by a shaolin do person recently in this thread)

no comparison.

thats not what I said , but go ahead and roll with it. I / we are not discussing sin the right now , doesnt matter what anyone says around here, everyone has stated their position, ad nauseum.

[hskwarrior]

never said anything ... thats your problem , you assume everything based on your own perception and very little fact... or skill to back it up.

rotflmao. what you wanna do? fight me? hahahahahaha

i'd trick you into coming and end up putting your face on a milk carton LOL

[tattooedmonk]

when you are like me, callling and emailing world masters of CMA, you have to be patient for their responses... you know they have a life and other things they do.

[hskwarrior]

when you are like me, callling and emailing world masters of CMA, you have to be patient for their responses... you know they have a life and other things they do.

tell em i said hello. would love to see them next time around. thanks.

mr BLUFFINATOR........jim jones......who? jim jonesssssssss!

[tattooedmonk]

rotflmao. what you wanna do? fight me? hahahahahaha

i'd trick you into coming and end up putting your face on a milk carton LOL

be real goof ball, I have better things to do with my time than come up there to school you in the arts.

but if you wanna pay me a visit I am always ready.....

I read your other posts , you talk a big game on the net....

but your really a big fat p-u-s-s-y.

who obviously cant be open minded or patient or anything reasonable.

its pathetic.

[Kellen Bassette]

There are two different discussions/arguments going on here, for some reason the "haters" aren't getting the position most of us are in, though we have stated it over and over again. Most of us here are not defending Sin The. We are apalled by how he has lied and recognize that a lot of the material he has taught was not learned or taught by him properly, and some of it he invented.
However, we learned the material from his system, that's a fact. We have this material now, wherever it came from, what to do with it? Personally, I want to find out where it came from and how it would be performed as authentic Chinese martial arts, or as "authentic" kun tao, or whatever it really is. Some of the forms are obvious, like the five animal form, tiger crane, four roads of hua, the northern praying mantis material and the internal material. We can find out where those forms are from and find people teaching those styles and learn how they would really be performed, they are clearly Chinese forms.
But there is a whole bunch of other material which is not obvious exactly where it came from. Wanting to find out the origins of the material I learned and to learn a more effective way to perform/use it is not defending shaolin do or Sin The. In fact, it is just the opposite, it means I do not trust anything I was taught by the students/devotees of Sin The. I just feel there is some value in the material, despite the method with which it was passed to me, and will make it work. If it is all "made up sh**", then I will make it the best "made up sh**" I possibly can. For the record, I don't believe it was all made up by Sin The, I think he lied in that deposition in order to justify his copyright claim. I think he made up a few forms in order to flesh out an originally sparse curriculum (what he learned as a teenager before coming to the US), before he started teaching material from books. So far, no judge has felt his copyright claim is enforceable.

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif). It never looked or felt right to me, and I never bothered practicing it after I learned it. After learning Zhai Yao, and a Bi Men Tang Lang two person set (which I think is a version of Beng Bu), I knew it wasn't really mantis, it just didn't fit. This makes me think it likely was invented by Sin The, again trying to flesh out his material in the early days. I think he knew the Lohan Chien form, which might have been made up by one of his teachers as an introduction to PM, and tried to extrapolate from that based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks). He never had time to learn the actual mantis system of his school, but later he found instruction books on various PM forms and taught them as special seminars. It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book. Or that he isn't terribly literate in Chinese characters. Or that he hand copied the text from a book, and then later couldn't read his own handwriting.)

I think you got the right idea. One person I trained with, a phenomenal M.A., fighter and technician...taught me several forms, some he came by honestly...some he took from books and videos. A big difference was he was honest about learning something from a video and didn't see a problem with it since he was a very competent M.A.; who had plenty of legitimate training under various instructors.

So what would you do in that situation if your a teacher?

Teach only the stuff that was handed down under a real lineage, assume you can teach it all because you have the understanding and ability to do so, try to find teachers from the other styles and get them to work on those forms/training methods with you? (The latter could be a very difficult task.)

So SD aside, what about the Shaolin, CLF, Hung Gar guys...ect...I'm sure plenty of you or your shifus/sifus own a book or a video. Would you teach something from this material? Would you give a disclaimer? Would you only teach it if it was from your system? If you've trained 20 years do you feel like there's no problem learning a form this way? Where are the lines? Do you feel guilty about it?

I got no dog in this fight, but I'm curious to your answers...if you can take a quick break from making Sin The famous....