Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

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[tattooedmonk]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...

can we discuss cults now? Awesome!!!and then compare them to better than 75 % of the groups and organizations that most, if not all of us belong to or participate in some way.

[Syn7]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...

That impresses you? Anyone with a slightly above average intelligence can rally stupid people to do stupid things. All that says is that he was smarter and more manipulative than his victims. What is amazing is that somebody would even want to do what he did. Not very impressive tho. Not to me anyways. the

[pazman]

I trained under a teacher for nearly five years. I learned 2 kicks, 5 punches, 1 elbow technique, and how to knee somebody from the clinch. Only after 4 years of training did he think to teach me a kata. I can respect that.

I don't think I could ever respect a teacher who teaches forms they learned from a book or video. I would prefer to train and learn the things they actually know.

[hskwarrior]

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[Kellen Bassette]

i'm curious. what is it exactly that you find impressive about him? this should be interesting, so i'm looking forward to what you have to say here.

He convinced 1000 people to sell their belongings leave California, move to the jungle in South America and live in a commune. That's an incredible feat in itself. He admitted to faking miracles, (hiding animal organs and using slight of hand to pull the "disease" out of people)...he had no problem with the deception because it gave them faith, allowing real miracles to happen...so he justified himself and kept his followers.

If you believe the official story...and there are some sketchy details, he told 800 people to kill themselves; and they did...I'm not sure I could get 800 people to do 10 push ups...If you ever listen to the so called "death tapes" at the end it sounded like he just went crazy and took everyone with him.

Sometimes you just got to admire exceptional personalities and not get hung up on semantics, like were they good or evil?

If you think about it, Ghandi and Hitler could have changed roles. They both had that kind of influence, one took it one way, one the other...

[Sima Rong]

Doshin So is another topic altogether, but any Shorinji Kenpo person I've ever talked to were very clear in stating that the naming is out of respect, not to imply that their method comes from Shaolin Gongfu.

I used to train in the art, though never really believed much about the early history of it at all.
Actually Doshin So did claim to be an inheritor to some Northern Shaolin style, which I very much doubt. He even said that he became grandmaster in some dilapidated Shaolin Temple somewhere.
However he designed Shorinji Kempo with influences from lots of different arts including jujutsu, hojojutsu, sumo and Western boxing, and philosophically/spiritually, from Zen (Chan) Buddhism. Whether the art really has much Chinese influence technique-wise it is hard to tell, especially since there doesn't seem to be any record of the styles he supposedly learnt in China.

This pretty much agrees with what I've read about Doshin So while training in Shorinji Kempo: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/6087005...+So+Doshin.pdf

[Syn7]

I don't believe in good or evil. And I don't believe what Jim Jones did was that impressive. It is so easy to manipulate people. I have had so many people ask me or say I am psychic. Really, I'm just manipulating the conversation to go my way and taking cues from body language. It's so easy. Probe validate probe validate MAGIC! I just randomly practice on people cause it's a great mental exercise.

I'm not trying to be a d1ck, just sayin... And mobilizing whole nations of millions is not even somewhat comparable to finding 1000 gullible dumb needy weak hurting people. We also have to keep in mind that like half of those numbers were children who were just along for the ride cause they were unlucky enough to have retarded caregivers.

[Kellen Bassette]

can we discuss cults now? Awesome!!!and then compare them to better than 75 % of the groups and organizations that most, if not all of us belong to or participate in some way.

Seriously...the only difference between a cult and a legitimate political party, church, social club ect... is main stream perception. If the main stream finds it acceptable all is cool, if not Janet Reno drives a tank through your wall and burns your women and children to death.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don't believe in good or evil. And I don't believe what Jim Jones did was that impressive. It is so easy to manipulate people. I have had so many people ask me or say I am psychic. Really, I'm just manipulating the conversation to go my way and taking cues from body language. It's so easy. Probe validate probe validate MAGIC! I just randomly practice on people cause it's a great mental exercise.

I'm not trying to be a d1ck, just sayin... And mobilizing whole nations of millions is not even somewhat comparable to finding 1000 gullible dumb needy weak hurting people. We also have to keep in mind that like half of those numbers were children who were just along for the ride cause they were unlucky enough to have retarded caregivers.

That's easy to say, but I bet a whole lot of people on this forum have a school and I bet not too many of them have 1000 current students...he was certainly on a smaller scale than others, but they were, in general, far more devoted to him...

[Kellen Bassette]

Also I think there's a big difference between earning passing interest from simple people with mental tricks, well spoken arguments, kung fu moves or what have you. Discipleing them to yourself, on that level, is a whole different animal.

[One student]

From this there comes a number of conflicting things (most of which you mentioned):
1) How does Hsiang The also know/teach the bird forms? He apparently produced notes showing his knowledge of these from the court case in Kentucky. At that time his notes were used to prove GMS did NOT make up these forms but were in fact taught to both of them from GM Ie.

2) What about all of the other material above 1st/2nd black? It's entirely possible this material was learned from GM Ie. Whether this means it comes from the temple is nearly impossible to verify since he and GM Tai Djinn are dead. With little independent verification of GM Tai Djinn's existence, the best we have is 2nd/3rd hand hearsay. And the material GMS "majored" in is beyond 1st/2nd black.

3) Why and how does GMS produce detailed notes for each of the materials that include the Chinese characters, training, etc.? If he made up all of this, that is a pretty impressive feat. Also, most of the old-timers have said these things were taught in the early 60s and 70s. So if GMS thought he was pulling a fast one over on all the "uneducated" masses, why go to the bother of creating such detailed movement names and training in both English and Chinese?

4) How is it that during the 1992 trip to Bandung, the White Lotus Society demonstrated a number of the lower-belt materials supposedly created by GMS? Did he create this back during his time in Indonesia?

I could be mistaken, but as I recall it, back in the early 80's, Master H. taught the 3 bird forms, as the Bird System was his specialty, not GMS. GMS taught, at around the same time, the 3 White Crane forms, and around the same time, the two "China Hand" forms (Lien U Chang, and Chie Chien). And in addition, there are subtle differences in the same lower level forms when taught by MH as opposed to when taught by GMS -- a hand positioned at the temple instead of extended, slight stance variations, things like that. That doesn't seem consistent with GMS making them up, at least not by himself. And if he did, MH was in on it, as his students learned the same material.

[hskwarrior]

[hskwarrior]

[Shaolin Wookie]

because neither you nor Sin The learned from a Shaolin student. .

Not sure, and neither are you. I don't know where many of the teachers at the Indonesian Chung Yen school learned their MA's from.