Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[One student]

So you would use the mantis claw hand to poke? My understanding is that it's a grab. I don't practice Mantis(I know a lil spm but thats somethings else) but I know those are NOT finger jabs. Using that way is just silly. You think it's a good form? Even though you know it's just a bunch of random movements with no story?

I don't know that it can be equated with bad or worthless, ONLY because it was made up or hybrid. HSK is proud of the form he made up and I'm sure it has benefits for him and others. I know others who have done the same thing, to have a set that contains the best of what they like to do. Doesn't mean it is "bad" or not worth praciticing.

I've understood the hand postures to be combinations of strikes, particularlly to pressure points, and also grabs where applicable.

Don't get into a discussion of the virtues of pressure point fighting. I'm not convinced of that myself.

[One student]

Maybe you should read my post again , I said what the form is I then commented on what the other mantis training and forms are. And yes the fingers can be used as a poke , I reference the mantis thread at this time. There are many hand attacks in mantis. The Mantis Claw as it is known is a seizing tech it was what I was taught originally . But The finger can be used to penetrate soft areas eyes etc. if need be. KC

That's what I meant: that is how it has been presented and trained, to me -- in SD. But I've said it before, one can teach the same form and technique, rightly or wrongly, and one student walk away with one impression and result from it, and another student in the same class something else. And somewhere along the line you might end up with what is seen in that video. Don't blame everyone who does that form, by how this person does it.

What I was struck by was his eyes, and where they were focusing.

[-N-]

All I can say is that I learned that form from M Hiang (GMS's brother), late 70's, early 80's. That is not the way he taught that form. Not really even close. Not how I practice it, not how many other SD people do it. It is what it is but not sure it is even representative of anything other than how that person practices it, even if he was taught it that way.

Ok, fair enough.

So how do you explain the gif of the teacher himself poking his fingers like an 8 year old trying to annoy his sister?

[One student]

I haven't seen any of these books/videos, but I know they're available from Plum Publishing...seen the titles in magazines and such...not familiar with SD, could be any number of forms with the same name...but as you asked for a reference...these may or may not be what your looking for....Plum has vcds, of various "Meteor Fists"...I'm almost certain I saw a book once, not sure from who or where...I'd have to do a search to find it...

I don't know anything about 10,000 Lotus....

Thank you, I'm going to look at the entire site in more detail.

[One student]

I could not find the book on Meteor Fist I supposed I was talking about..maybe I'm losing my mind...I went through those vcd titles, they were all for Meteor Hammer forms, so I'm sure that's not what you wanted...one Meteor Whip...Couldn't find a Meteor Fist....sorry about the bad lead....

Came across a post from Sal Canzonieri that may be useful to you...
I seen Shi Tou Quan translated as Stone Head Fist, he says it's also known as Meteor Fist...you may want to look into that form if you haven't done so....
Here's the pertinant portion of that post.


少林石頭拳
The Shi Tou Quan is often known as the Meteor Fist set. It is on page 513 of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, and there is a lot of information about this set given. It's about 75 movements.

Only even close text reference I've ever found is in Library of Congress, an historical reference to a style known as "Shooting Star" system. Not sure it is the same thing at all.

[Kellen Bassette]

Only even close text reference I've ever found is in Library of Congress, an historical reference to a style known as "Shooting Star" system. Not sure it is the same thing at all.

There's a Hung Gar form named Shooting Star..but I doubt it would be the same form...

[-N-]

I don't know that it can be equated with bad or worthless, ONLY because it was made up or hybrid. HSK is proud of the form he made up and I'm sure it has benefits for him and others. I know others who have done the same thing, to have a set that contains the best of what they like to do. Doesn't mean it is "bad" or not worth praciticing.

I've understood the hand postures to be combinations of strikes, particularlly to pressure points, and also grabs where applicable.

I definately would equate his poking with bad and worthless.



Look when he kicks. He has no focus or awareness of his hands. They sort of just flail around.

Basic beginner mistake to forget one thing while doing something else. I yell at students for less.

Also, Mantis is aggressive and tactical. It controls while attacking. This is fundamental to Mantis.

His attacks are just a kick and random poking strung together. He has no controlling techniques to support his attacks.

This is made up by someone that doesn't understand Mantis, and maybe even not TCMA. Just look at the body mechanics.

[One student]

forms practice is good for a demonstration. for health. and is one aspect of training. just because you practice forms doesn't mean you can fight in the least. nor does it mean you know how to effectively use it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

forms are nothing than a reference guide on how to use it. the only way to build your fighting skills is to FIGHT. thats it. you need to work your basics, and apply them. will you use the material as found in the forms? in most cases no.



you can develop all of these without forms.



i was already fighting prior to learning martial arts. so no, i don't feel forms made me or anyone else a better fighter. just because you can do a form well doesn't mean you can fight.



i agree. forms are not a waste of time. but i would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell a person if you want to fight better you have to learn a specific form. never in my life would i do that. and feel bad for others who DO.



our forms practice is intended to perfect the techniques in them. understand them. OWN them. but this is not the way i would or will teach someone how to fight.



i disagree. there are fighters who understand forms better because the person know how to fight already. but not the other way around.



this is called TRADITION. has nothing to do with fighting whatsoever.

I don't agree that forms are nothing but "tradition" and have nothing to with with fighting. Didn't the creators of the forms put their fighting techinques in the forms, on purpose? Didn't the drills and fighting techniques they like go into those forms? And martial artists who believe in forms practice take them out and apply them? And doesn't doing those forms, and finding the gold in them, do more for a fighter than just giving them the gold? At least that is what some masters say. Maybe you are advocating skipping that step -- doing the forms to find and train the techniques -- and go straight to "what are the techniques?" and just doing those? I can't deny that many good fighters agree with you.

But I agree, you don't HAVE to do forms to be a good fighter. But I think it can help. But it may also be splitting hairs. Doing simple punching, kicking, blocking, etc., drills is just a less formal "form" practice: repetition of the same technique, even if with less focus on "formality." But I think that when I'm doing a punch, kick, sweep, throw, or whatever, from a formal horse, cat, bow, etc., stance, repeatedly, I can do that same move better, in a fighting/sparring stance. Like when I practice with a weight jacket, or with resistance bands, then take them off: the technique is better. I think you are correct, but so am I, we are just splitting hairs on what is a "form": a set of drills, repetitively practiced to improve their performance.

And it is so correct, as I have said before, there is no better way to be a better fighter than fighting. But that's no different than saying the best way to be a better runner is by running, or a swimmer than by swimming. There is though "cross training" methods that also help. Forms, bag work, sparring, etc., all (hopefully) help when you actually have to do something. But who these days goes out to the bar, to the street, to the bad part of town, hopefully to get in a fight? Or find another fighter and challenge them to a no-rules fight. Or do you join a real-life "fight club"? And I will suggest, and don't think many would disagree, that ring fighting, or sparring in class, full contact or not, is not "fighting." You are not really trying to do bodily harm to disable that person so they can't fight, and you know they aren't really trying to do that to you (a busted nose, a black eye, not the same thing). And in a ring, too many rules. One of my favorite lines from one of my favorite martial arts movies (Red Belt): "I don't believe in competition fighting. It makes one weak." In other words, you have to un-train the techniques that will break the rules, but also "break" the opponent.

[hskwarrior]

Quote:
But isn't it true that learning forms, if practiced properly, can help build the skills that can lead to being a better fighter?
forms practice is good for a demonstration. for health. and is one aspect of training. just because you practice forms doesn't mean you can fight in the least. nor does it mean you know how to effectively use it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

forms are nothing than a reference guide on how to use it. the only way to build your fighting skills is to FIGHT. thats it. you need to work your basics, and apply them. will you use the material as found in the forms? in most cases no.

Quote:
Strength, speed, stability, balance, endurance, coordination, etc.?
you can develop all of these without forms.

Quote:
I think I was a better fighter because I did forms, then free practice (like sparring techniques and bag work), then light sparring, then contact sparring, etc.
i was already fighting prior to learning martial arts. so no, i don't feel forms made me or anyone else a better fighter. just because you can do a form well doesn't mean you can fight.

Quote:
But form practice is not a waste of time, even if you want to be a better actual fighter.
i agree. forms are not a waste of time. but i would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell a person if you want to fight better you have to learn a specific form. never in my life would i do that. and feel bad for others who DO.

Quote:
True, if not practiced properly its no more than exercise, but it doesn't have to be "just exercise," does it?
our forms practice is intended to perfect the techniques in them. understand them. OWN them. but this is not the way i would or will teach someone how to fight.

Quote:
But there are also forms practitioners who are better fighters because of their forms practice.
i disagree. there are fighters who understand forms better because the person know how to fight already. but not the other way around.

Quote:
But there are also forms practitioners who are better fighters because of their forms practice. Isn't that why (at least partially) forms practice has been handed down, and is a common thread in most TMA -- including CLF?
this is called TRADITION. has nothing to do with fighting whatsoever.

[YouKnowWho]

Do people know that there are 3 different ways to do a form? You can do the same form for

- combat,
- health, and
- performance.

For example, when you do form for

- "combat", you will punch fast and pull back fast.
- "health", you will punch slow and pull back fast.
- "performance", you will punch fast, leave your arm to be frozen in the air, screaming like a madman with ugly facial expression.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...r:11,s:0,i:105

[Kellen Bassette]

I think the best aspect of forms is that they incorporate so many vital practices into one exercise.

You can't learn to fight without fighting, no doubt. However, there are so many important attributes to being a good fighter that don't necessarily have to do with fighting. Strength, cardio, stamina, agility, coordination.

Of course these can all be trained independently, but form training is combining your shadow boxing, cardio, agility, ect into one exercise.

If your doing your forms hard and correctly, you should be more tired doing about 3 average length Northern forms then from running a mile. The constant low to high stance changes, the variation of the pace and the explosive movements are killer for cardio and strength.

The muscle memory that is achieved through form practice is certainly applicable to fighting; developing good technique (of course without actual fighting you won't have the timing or instincts to make it work.)

You always hear that forms catalog techniques and they are useful for that, but I think they have more value for the reasons I mentioned above.

I think forms are the most efficient method for practicing all the above mentioned martially applicable attributes. And if you combine that with conditioning, partner drilling and hard sparring, you just might learn to fight.

Forms are also more fun then shadow boxing, squats and running in place.

[-N-]

Do people know that there are 3 different ways to do a form? You can do the same form for

- combat,
- health, and
- performance.

For example, when you do form for

- "combat", you will punch fast and pull back fast.
- "health", you will punch slow and pull back fast.
- "performance", you will punch fast, leave your arm to be frozen in the air, screaming like a madman with ugly facial expression.

So which one is this?

[One student]

Ok, fair enough.

So how do you explain the gif of the teacher himself poking his fingers like an 8 year old trying to annoy his sister?

I'm not sure what "gif of the teacher" you are referring to, I must be missing that reference, so I can't comment on it.

But I know that MH was a Bird System master as his specialty, and GMT was a Snake System master as his specialty. They each semed to have other material they seemed to like or do more of than the other. And I understood there were Mantis masters/specialists at the school they were trained in. And I suppose that makes it obvious their Mantis training likely not what their Bird or Snake training was, maybe even only superficial or basic, maybe no more than just the forms, but could have been more than that. But I don't know more than that. Any one can do something in a video I guess and do it half-**s, maybe or maybe not be representative of any thing serious or intended to be. Or you are correct, it could just be a lack of same understanding as someone who only does that material.

[Jimbo]

I don't agree that forms are nothing but "tradition" and have nothing to with with fighting. Didn't the creators of the forms put their fighting techinques in the forms, on purpose? Didn't the drills and fighting techniques they like go into those forms? And martial artists who believe in forms practice take them out and apply them? And doesn't doing those forms, and finding the gold in them, do more for a fighter than just giving them the gold? At least that is what some masters say. Maybe you are advocating skipping that step -- doing the forms to find and train the techniques -- and go straight to "what are the techniques?" and just doing those? I can't deny that many good fighters agree with you.

But I agree, you don't HAVE to do forms to be a good fighter. But I think it can help. But it may also be splitting hairs. Doing simple punching, kicking, blocking, etc., drills is just a less formal "form" practice: repetition of the same technique, even if with less focus on "formality." But I think that when I'm doing a punch, kick, sweep, throw, or whatever, from a formal horse, cat, bow, etc., stance, repeatedly, I can do that same move better, in a fighting/sparring stance. Like when I practice with a weight jacket, or with resistance bands, then take them off: the technique is better. I think you are correct, but so am I, we are just splitting hairs on what is a "form": a set of drills, repetitively practiced to improve their performance.

And it is so correct, as I have said before, there is no better way to be a better fighter than fighting. But that's no different than saying the best way to be a better runner is by running, or a swimmer than by swimming. There is though "cross training" methods that also help. Forms, bag work, sparring, etc., all (hopefully) help when you actually have to do something. But who these days goes out to the bar, to the street, to the bad part of town, hopefully to get in a fight? Or find another fighter and challenge them to a no-rules fight. Or do you join a real-life "fight club"? And I will suggest, and don't think many would disagree, that ring fighting, or sparring in class, full contact or not, is not "fighting." You are not really trying to do bodily harm to disable that person so they can't fight, and you know they aren't really trying to do that to you (a busted nose, a black eye, not the same thing). And in a ring, too many rules. One of my favorite lines from one of my favorite martial arts movies (Red Belt): "I don't believe in competition fighting. It makes one weak." In other words, you have to un-train the techniques that will break the rules, but also "break" the opponent.

What hskwarrior said is spot on.

I would say there are qualities that forms can enhance to a degree, but they won't make you a better fighter.

In fact, it may be more accurate to say that the person who is better at sparring or fighting with his or her style will do their forms better because of that, not the other way around.

[Empty_Cup]

I'm not sure what "gif of the teacher" you are referring to, I must be missing that reference, so I can't comment on it.
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A .gif or "gif" is basically a number of pictures strung together to make a video-like image. The file size is generally smaller so it's more popular than embedding video files.