Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Orion Paximus]

found one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QK-oniX8w

[Orion Paximus]

and another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq8...eature=related

[Judge Pen]

you guys say its all real shaolin. So, if it was it would have a video of it somewhere right? This just adds to the idea that all this stuff was just invented to make money off the unsuspecting.

You know, sin the could never have done this in san francisco. He'd get called out quick!

Frank, most of us here are not saying it's real shaolin. Haven't for a while. And I don't think this material was recently made up and is part of the kung tao that was taught in Indonesia. From what and when it was created is a question, but I don't think Sin The really learned these particular forms except what his brother taught him later.

If Sin had came to San Fran., he would have been forced to call it what it is: kung tao.

[Judge Pen]

I have befriended some local Shaolin Do practitioners recently, they love what they are learning, and respect other arts. They also travel to the Shaolin Temple annually and are taught traditional Shaolin forms. I might join them on their next trip.
Also, one of the Shaolin Do students recently joined out school on the recommendation of his Shaolin Do teacher.

Who cares if the lineage is real or not...

Thank-you for the positive attitude. I can understand why some people get upset at the arrogance and misrepresentations, coupled with a bad understanding of CMA techniques, by many of SD's elders, but most of the students are well-intentioned (as you have seen for yourself).

[kwaichang]

OK I tried to up load the translation. KC

[MasterKiller]

Who cares if the lineage is real or not...

No one would if we hadn't spent 10 years listening to them talk about monks wearing Gis, statues of Sin The at Shaolin temple, and stories of old Chinese men who pulled them all aside and told them "That is the old Shaolin..."

[brucereiter]

For The to have studied both the Cheng Man Qing form and the 24 in Indonesia, there would have to be an amazing circumstance surrounding that, and there would almost certainly be no way for him to learn it from the same person, or even enough time to become good at them.

I think its safe to say he learned the 24 from a book, along with the 4 roads of huaquan and a slew of others in the shaolin do syllabus.

I agree. I just acknowledged I think that is was possible whereas I think it is impossible that the 64/24 forms came from the Shaolin temple.

I think it is improbable for sin the to have learned theses arts as a teen.

The book Some of the internal sin the teaches from is called "New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course" The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-K...rds=9620710460

There are 3 books in the set. the set contains 20 forms, with Hsing I Roads , Animals and Linkage considered one form.
undoubtedly Sin The took the following forms from the set:

Book One has a lot of training exercises and three forms - one is the Spear vs. Broadsword set. There are also some push-hand exercises that look familiar.

Book Two has a total of 9 forms - of which 5 Sin The has taught. Long Fist, Modern Hua, 24 Form, Tiger Crane, Hsing I Roads, Linkage and Animals.

Book Three has a total of 8 forms - of which two Sin The has taught. Twin Doubles and 9 Section Chain Whip.

Obviously with 8 out of 20 forms from a single set of books it is probably mathematically impossible that he got them elsewhere.

[Empty_Cup]

OK I tried to up load the translation. KC

The English (romanization) carried through but the Chinese characters did not.

[brucereiter]

Whats the deal with Wen shiu he doesnt have a dog in this fight. also SKThe was taught by other teachers prior to GM Ie KC

When the was 5 or 6 years old??? How much could he have learned? He claims he did sand burn training but also claims it was was just a story. That also does not address where, when, how and from whomb he learned.

Yang tai chi chuan 64
Tai chi CHUAN 24 form
Chen xin jia tai chi CHUAN
Jang rong qiao Bagua
8 animal Bagua
Hsing I 5 elements
Hsing I 12 animals
Hsing I linking or "linkage"

This is a lot for a boy of 16 or 21 years of age to learn.
Sin the was born in 1943 and came to the usa in 1964.

The claims his instruction from ie Chang Ming started in 1950.
He does not claim any instruction other than in Indonesia so if I am to understand sin the's claims he says he learned and mastered all of the above material by 1964 when he was 21 years old.

Now add in the 900 + forms the says he mastered between 1954 and 1964 all while working and going to school apparently only doing the intensive training in the summer.

Sin kwang the' claims are not believable. When you look at how sin the teaches / performs any of the internal stuff I mentioned he does it in a way that is not recognizable to what I have witnessed from any other source I have been able to find.
Why does the do it so different? I have scene other ima from Indonesia that looks like it follows the methods and principals of these individule arts.

[brucereiter]

24 and Jiang bagua are the most popular forms of tai chi and bagua in existence. Hardly need a book when everyone and their mother does seminars on them. Besides, they hosted huge tournaments and Sin had his complex. Could have learned them from anyone, since they clearly had connections. The book thing is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

BUT sin the claims to have learned "jrq" bagua from ie chang ming between the late after he was 16-17 and before he was 21 and left for the usa in 1964.

at that time in indonesia it is possible but very unlikely that the could have been exposed to these styles. jrq did release his book about the form in in 1963 in china and i think joseph crandall released his translation of the book in 1992.

this form was developed in the in the 1950's by jiang rong qiao.

i have heard but can not confirm that joseph crandall referenced sin the's translation in doing research for his own translation which would imply sin the had this information before 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7D...4&feature=plcp

i find it questionable that sin the signed his translation "by sin kwang the" instead of "translated by sin kwang the" it was defiantly implied to me that the authored those ideas when he in fact did not.


you are very lucky to have the sd teacher you have mike reid has really dug deep to learn what he can about these arts. what he does is not like sin the does though.

[brucereiter]

. I rather like the art, but I'm growing partial to the Chinese-Indies part these days.

it is important that you like the art you are doing and make it your own. fortunately with a teacher like mike ried you have a person that can offer you good instruction even through the bs related to the art. i am glad to have had a chance to train with him, he taught me a lot.

ultimately it does not matter about the history what really matters is what you are getting out of it right now. having said that i reall wish the history bs would be straightened out by sin kwang the.

[Judge Pen]

you are very lucky to have the sd teacher you have mike reid has really dug deep to learn what he can about these arts. what he does is not like sin the does though.

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

[Judge Pen]

ultimately it does not matter about the history what really matters is what you are getting out of it right now. having said that i reall wish the history bs would be straightened out by sin kwang the.

He is the only one that could, but I doubt he ever will.

[kwaichang]

Bruce I was told By GM The that when he staryted the training at the school in indonesia that he was taught by others prior to being taught by GM Ie. KC

[kwaichang]

OK I tried again. KC