Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

Ok here are 2 others as well/. KC

[kwaichang]

OK now take a look KC

[brucereiter]

Bruce I was told By GM The that when he staryted the training at the school in indonesia that he was taught by others prior to being taught by GM Ie. KC

interesting kc...this is possible but it does not address any of my questions about the internal material.

these are some claims of sin the that i have compiled. you can fact check...
some of it i am sure is true and some of it is just a story. the parts that relate to internal are what i am most interested in.
==================================================
1849 su kong tai jin was born in fukien provence
1850 sukong tai jin was found by a shaolin monk and taken into the temple
1851
1852
1853
1854
1855
1856
1857
1858
1859
1860
1861
1862
1863
1864
1865
1866
1867
1868
1869
1870
1871
1872
1873
1874
1875 "su kong tai jin/ ""council""destroy the temple instead of allowing the ching government army / a traitor monk to destroy the temple ??date??"
1876
1877
1878
1879
1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
1881
1882
1883
1884
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928 su kong tai jin died in fukien provence mountains
1929
1930 "jiang rong qiao creates the ""original baguazhang form"" some time in the 30's I think???"
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
sin the’age 1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
1 1944
2 1945
3 1946
4 1947
5 1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
6 1949
7 1950 "sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school ""central shaolin wushu school"" in bandung"
8 1951
9 1952
10 1953
11 1954 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school""
12 1955 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school"" and awarded black belt level 1"
13 1956 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
14 1957 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
15 1958 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school"" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets ""maters wu"" and is introduced to internal. the says that wu had emotional problems"
16 1959 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time) "
17 1960 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
18 1961 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
19 1962 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
20 1963 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time) "
21 1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
22 1965
23 1966
24 1967
25 1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill walace competed.
26 1969
27 1970
28 1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
29 1972
30 1973
31 1974
32 1975
33 1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968. (some say 68 some 76???)
34 1977
35 1978 "sin kwang the opens the ""sports center""
36 1979
37 1980
38 1981
39 1982
40 1983
41 1984
42 1985
43 1986
44 1987
45 1988
46 1989
47 1990
48 1991
49 1992
50 1993
51 1994 "?? System is named ""shaolin do"" ?? But may have been reffered to as ""shaolin do"" some time before."
52 1995 "sin kwang the and james halladay release the book ""shaolin do secrets from the temple""
53 1996
54 1997
55 1998
56 1999
57 2000
58 2001
59 2002
60 2003
61 2004
62 2005
63 2006
64 2007
65 2008
66 2009
67 2010
68 2011 http://www.shaolin-do.com/
69 2012 sin the admits to making up parts of the shaolin do system and to lying about some parts of the shaolin do system and the material he teaches.

==============================================
https://www.youtube.com/user/shaolin...l?feature=mhee
when i see these representations of ima on video i call into question the quality and understanding of the internal martial arts sin the does. i simply think that sin the and bill leonard do not know very much about internal martial arts.
remember sin the specifically says numerous times over the years he has mastered these styles.
https://www.youtube.com/user/shaolin...l?feature=mhee
================================================== ====

i do appreciate that sin the is a nice man and that he is in incredible physical condition now and through out his life. i have been told by people who's opinion i respect that sin the can hit incredibly fast and hard. i have witnessed sin the move with extreme explosiveness. i am pretty sure that sin kwang the can defend him self in a fight.

i also appreciate that sin the has taught others to have similar attributes and abilities but that does not mean that sin kwang the has a good understanding of internal martial arts.
he simply does not display it in his teaching or performance.
he has lied and misled about too many things that anything he says can and should be called into question.
========================================

[brucereiter]

questions to those of you who are close to sin the.
can you ask sin the these questions? and share his answers here?

-will you ask sin the point blank about his history? and to explain the discrepancies?
-why is sin the's internal material performed so differently than almost any other source?
-why did sin the' sign his translation of jiang rong qiao's work as his own?
-where and when did you learn chen 83 xin jia tai chi chuan?
-where and when did you learn yang tai chi chuan.
-is the tai chi chuan that you teach and call yang 64 form actually cheng man chings tai chi chuan?
-if the 64 form is not cmc tai chi then why is it that of the MANY variations of yang tai chi out there that the 64 form matches up with cmc form but not to any others i can find?
-where and when did sin the learn the tai chi 24 form?
-why is the 24 form referred to as the "shaolin combination tai chi form"
-why do you sin the think that the tai chi churn, hsing i and bagua you teach come from the fukien shaolin temple? when and how could jrq bagua and cmc tai chi chuan have been at the fukien temple between 1880 and 1910 if you follow sin the's timeline.

[brucereiter]

below is a string of emails between me and a former sd master from a few years ago who shared some information with me about some of his understanding of sd and ima i think there is some useful information for all sd students to consider. i hope he does not mind me posting publicly. if he does i apologize.

>>>>From: David Theroff <>
Date: January 7, 2008 9:31:11 AM EST
To: bruce reiter <>
Subject: Re: more questions

Bruce,

Ok, you asked... But its a healthy amount of words....you may be sorry you asked me!

Its easy to understand the riff between the different factions of SDO, or at least I think its easy. As long as you remember the war lords of*Feudal*Japan, or any other power hungry situation, where everyone wants to be in control of everyone else.

Master Gary and I were on the same test to 1st Black Belt, At that time he was teaching in Atlanta and I was teaching in Boulder Colorado. Master Gary and I were the soards first two instructors. The soards are control freaks pure and simple. So when Master Gary started talking with others from Lexington the soards got very angry. You see in the soards mind you will never be (or Master Gary) as good as them. They feel they were a better white belt than you. Normally when a person in an art gets to Master they get all the rights and*privileges*of that rank. Not under the Soards. Part of the riff they also had with me is that I kept in periodic contact with Master Gary and Master Mike as well as others not under the soards and that angered them as well. (they feel they have a right to tell you who your friends should be).

As shocking as it may sound when I tell you this; I feel it is the truth on the SDO system. Grandmaster The' does not run the art at all the elder Masters do. GMT just sits idle while everyone does their own thing unless there is*commotion.*

The soards are very*deceitful*and dishonest people who have taken advantage*of so many people its*sickening.*They create*here-say*and rumors about anyone they don't like. I remember them bashing Master Grooms for over 3 hours once in an instructor meeting about how bad he was, yet the ironic part is I was the only instructor at that meeting who even knew who Master Grooms was!

GMT told me to start the internal program at my San Jose school. (I was a Tai Chi Instructor for several years before I started in SDO) He suggested I talk with Master Grooms/Master Mike for the internal program as well as Master Joe in Texas for the kids program. I did, and created an internal program. In less than a year Grandmaster The' had mentioned in my school to all my students at a test that we had the largest internal program in the USA (2002). That really angered the soards (they didn't create it so naturally they would be angry). The soards told me to stop both the internal and the kids program, but GMT stepped in and supported me. GMT told me at that time I would eventually answer directly to him so I just kept going. This is when the soards started their here-say campaign*against'*me. All of a sudden they started spreading lies and stories about me to everyone. (some of their brown nosers are still posting on internet sites bad things about me that are untrue), from how I have a bad attitude and am angry all the time, to all kinds of other nonsense.

Then I tested to 6th Black and all my material stopped. They didn't teach me any more material. With all of that it now became obvious that I was in the wrong art. Being in San Jose afforded me many new friendships. The entire Shaolin circle of life tour came into my school once as did many other famous martial artists (Benson Lee of Eagle Claw, etc..). Some of the Masters wanted to work out with me and I wanted to learn some of their material so I did. (My School was the 2nd largest Chinese kung fu school in the bay area according to one newspaper) I also traveled back to Illinois where my first instructor was living, and he accepted my rank in SDO in 2003 so I started learning a ton of info from him. (I had no idea he had the material he had until 2003, yet I started with him in the 70's). So I sold my school to my Sr. Student in San Jose and came here to Chicago area. I collected a ton of material outside of the SDO art over the years as well and now that I had the*oppression*factor removed I was/am free to work on all of that as well. In Sept 2007 I tested in front of two of my previous Masters to 7th Black over all of their material that I have been working on, and then they taught me a ton more. (mostly Hsing I Chuan and Pa Kua Chang), stuff I have not seen in the SDO art.

Meanwhile in Sept 2007 the soards told all of their instructors that they can't teach the internal program and can no longer teach any kids as sharon soard hates kids. (so in other words, tell your students in these programs that they have to quit) This would mean that some of the schools would no longer be able to support themselves. Master Carr in LA broke away from them but 99% of his students stayed with the soards. David Diep (my Sr. Student in San Jose), broke away from them as well but every student (over all the San Jose school students never liked the soards) joined him with the exception of 3 people. The Soards lied to them over 20 times of various issues, which is all written down on paper, the instructors there shared these written agreements with all the students so every San Jose student is aware of the dishonesty of the soards) The San Jose school was reported to talk to GMT and ask if they could answer to me, but GMT told them it was about money, but in reality its about the hold that sharon soard has over him. (he bows to her will). ALthough GMT wrote me a letter in October*apologizing*to me for not having me on his grandmaster site, when he put it on the site the soards told GMT to remove it. Further research found that they are angry at me because I sold the school to my student David Diep and they felt I should have just handed over to them for free). GMT made a promise to me to my face, yet he didn't live up to it, so I as well as many others have issues with his honesty as well now.
The soards lawyer has been sending them letters (San Jose school), but they all got their own lawyer who is currently representing them, time will tell how it all turns out. (the soards have very little to stand on, they really can't do anything with the copyright claim as you can't copyright something you did not create, so its really all down to the confidentially or trade secrets issue which is what they try to claim. Problem is that we have found several sources of SDO material being done by other schools that know nothing of SDO. (most of the internal stuff, Hua Fist, etc.). And the more video that is found of other non SDO schools doing the material, the weaker their claims become.

Meanwhile some of the martial arts vendors have their own rumor that they feel is highly likely. This is that they think the reason sharon soard has a hold over GMT is that ashley soard (sharons daughter), is really the daughter of sharon and GMT. There is a lot of clues to support this theory.*david soard and sharon soard have marriage problems, david soard is always going after young female students to the shock of many students, and ashley soard has never called david "dad" or "father" only by his first name, among many other more convincing things.

So from my perspective the best thing I ever did was to leave them. Now I am working on whatever I want from all the instructors/Masters I have trained with. My experience with SDO allowed me to be seen in a different light by some of my first Masters (outside of SDO), that have started showing me material that I have not seen. The San Jose students have asked me to come teach seminars at their school now as well, they even told me they would give me the school if I returned. So we are going to go back eventually.

I last talked with GMT 2 months ago during all this commotion. He was very nice, and its really down to the soards. I would guess if the soards were not around GMT would let me answer directly to him. I feel that GMT is being extorted by the soards.

what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?

I tend to believe more of the Master Hsiang version of the history. When we were in Indonesia (Master Gary was there as well), I talked with a few of the other Masters there who learned under GM Ie Chang Ming. Meanwhile I wrote an article for GMT and was supposed to write several others (which I did), but the soards told me not to try and get them printed. I got to interview and talk with GMT a lot on the China trips. My last name is spelled Theroff and his The' so we got seats next to each other almost the entire time. In the beginning GMT encouraged me to talk with the others about the history, but when I started hearing things like GM Ie Chang Ming may have learned from others, and asking GMT about this, he (GMT) told me not to mention the other Masters any longer, and wouldn't even answer any of my questions in regards to this subject. If GMT was totally honest about everything I would have more faith in the history he claims, but since there are several other things he has not been completely honest about, I started to doubt his history.

The problem is that if a person is not honest about one thing, they may not be honest about others. (why lawyers always beat people down on the stand, are they a reliable source of "truth"?) The stone tablets were*erected*at the temples because SDO gave a donation at the temple. Its the same concept as a zoo in the usa, donate and you get a plaque.*



<<<<
continued in next post

[brucereiter]

continued from previous post

>>>SDO honored the Shao-lin Temple, not the other way around. The soards have made many bogus history claims as well which does not offer any more credibility to SDO, but takes it away, so others prey on this. Some SDO sites claim that GMT was the first one in 1500 years that was awarded a tablet, a total lie. (There are other tablets that were put up before GMT"s including a Tang So Do one). I was at the original Shaolin temple in 1989 and saw the Tang So Do temple and took pictures of it, it was not until years later until the SDO tablets where put up.

I personally consider SDO to be more of a gypsy type of art, material being collected from several sources, NOT just the Shao-lin temple. This would explain why Cheng Man Chings modified Yang Tai Chi short form is being used for SDO's 37 posture "temple form", and why the combined Tai Chi form, which is really an almost exact version of the Beijing modified form from the 50's. I studied with two of Cheng Man Chings sr. students before I started in SDO, it was strange knowing the Tai Chi form before I started SDO, and I only needed to modify some things to test on it. I really doubt that GMT has 900 forms. Look at it this way, he teaches 1-2 new forms per year in Lexington, and he has taught under 400 forms so far (at least that is what he told me). This would mean that it would take him 250 more years to release the rest of the material. I have met several other kung fu masters who know over 100 forms., not as many as GMT has taught, but still a healthy amount.

All of this from my perception doesn't really matter, most arts can't claim a "real" lineage its all*conjecture. What everyone wants is MATERIAL. Schools like to claim strong lineages as they think it will get them more students, or set them on a higher*pedestal*than everyone else. I have learned a lot from SDO, but also well over a hundred materials from others as well.

Up until last Sept I thought it would just be a matter of time before I would be back with SDO; I left being in good terms with GMT; but now that I am learning material and have the ability to advance I am phasing ****her away from SDO as it is not as attractive as it once appeared to be.....

mdst

i do feel lucky to study under master gary and master reid and to have the chance to just study ima as that is where my interest is. they have both been very good to me.*
master gary told me he had a falling out with the soards but he did not tell me why. do you know if it was over the ima program? *
i noticed a few years ago your name was removed from the soards web site etc and i wondered why.*
do you know how grandmaster the feels about the soards attitude regarding the ima program?*
are you in contact with grand master the anymore?*
what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?

On Jan 6, 2008, at 10:29 PM, bruce reiter wrote:
hi master david,

thank you for taking the time to respond to my emails. please see a few comments and questions below. i hope none of my questions are offensive.*

best regards,

bruce reiter



On Jan 6, 2008, at 11:11 AM, David Theroff wrote:
Bruce,

We really like the Bay area and after we left it (we lived there for almost 8 years, and that is where my Kung Fu school was) we realized it was home.
best wishes on your return home ...

You are*fortunate*to be able to have the Internal Program under the SDO flag. My internal program in San Jose was what eventually got me to leave them. the soards are totally*against*it, and they have been trying for years to get GMT to make it so you, and Master Grooms can't teach it either. So I stayed with another Master I had trained with off and on for 35 years while also being in the SDO organization and he promoted me to 7th Black last Sept so I am staying with their group now. We have a school in the Bay area now, and I go there 4-5 times per year to teach them material.
i do feel lucky to study under master gary and master reid and to have the chance to just study ima as that is where my interest is. they have both been very good to me.*
master gary told me he had a falling out with the soards but he did not tell me why. do you know if it was over the ima program? *
i noticed a few years ago your name was removed from the soards web site etc and i wondered why.*
do you know how grandmaster the feels about the soards attitude regarding the ima program?*
are you in contact with grand master the anymore?*
what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?


I watched your push hands video and I do have comments. Rule number one: Never use the hands and palms in push hands. Feel with your entire body! The long bone of the arms should be touching not the hands. everyone always feels from the hands their entire life; in Tai Chi you need to feel the movement using your entire body. Strange to me is that I have studied with 12 different Tai Chi Instructors and Masters in my career yet they used the long bone of the arms, yet everyone else I see always uses the hands.

Tai Chi yields, yet I saw a lot of Yang vs Yang energy displayed in your video. Movement flows it does not stop. *I tried to explain to my students; if we compare external Kung fu to Internal Tai Chi to a floor: External would be a wood floor (still has some flex to it), but the Tai Chi floor would be made out of rice paper. (press and fall thru).

Another thing; don't forget that when your opponent had tried to attack you, and they start to withdraw their arm go with it as that is when they are open. (Ie: The saying: "The closer they get to you the ****her you are, yet the ****her away they try to get from you the closer you are to them"). Hope that helps;' basically keep doing what you are doing!

thank you for sharing your observations, i will see what i can do with the information you shared.

Also read the Tai Chi Book "There are No Secrets"; I totally agree with that author and his*opinion*on the so called push hands champions in the USA (basically*any big*wrestler*could win a push hands championship)

i have looked at this book but do not own it yet ...

mdst



On Jan 5, 2008, at 11:47 PM, bruce reiter wrote:
hi master david,

san francisco bay area is a great area. best of luck with your move. i travel about 6 or so months per year so i will look you up in the bay area next time i am there.
here is a link to my youtube channel*http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter *if you have time please take a look and let me know what observations/advice you may have.
i am a student and a teacher here at the atlanta chinese shaolin center in the internal program.

best regards,

bruce reiter
<<<<

[brucereiter]

Suggested reading list:
Below are some of the many books in my library that I have found useful in my study and training in shaolin do. Please do not think you can learn these styles from a book. one thing you can get from reading martial arts books are better understanding of the concepts and principals unique to each art, then through experimentation and practice you can start to add some of these concepts to your practice. The most important thing is to practice and experiment, do not spend too much time reading, we need to sweat to improve …
best regards,
bruce reiter
===============================================
full of mis information but useful as a place to start checking reality from.
Shaolin-Do: Secrets from the Temple
Copyright 1995 by James R. Halladay and Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'
Kendall/Hunt Publishing Company 20050 Westmark Drive Dubuque, Iowa 52002
=============================================
"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course" The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-K...rds=9620710460

===================================
the dao of taijiquan
by jou tsung hwa 233 pages, line drawings
===========================


yang chen fu
the essence and applications
of taijiquan
translated by louis swaim. 124 pages, old photographs, softbound
=========================================


chen taijiquan
chen xiao-wang, 
feng zhi-qiang, 
feng da-biao
softbound, 227 pages

=============================================

classical baguazhang
bagua lian-xi fa
by jiang rong qiao
translated by joseph crandall
97 pages

===========================================



sun style bagua zhang 
including bagua sword
by sun lu tang
translated by joseph crandall
107 pages, velo-bound
==========================================


emei bagua zhang 
theory and application
liang shou-yu &yang jwing-ming
361 pages,softbound,
=========================================



classical pa kua chang
fighting systems and weapons
author: sifu jerry alan johnson
publisher: ching lung martial arts association, inc, copyright 1990
form: paperback, 9 x 6 in, 188 pages

====================================



tai chi theory and martial power
book by yang jwing-ming

================================================== =======



taiji chin na: seizing art of taijiquan
book by yang jwing-ming

======================================

xingyi mu chuan (xing yi mother fists) 
by jiang rong-jiao
translated by joseph crandall
115 pages,
===============================================


xingyi zha shi chui & ba shi chuan 
by jiang rong-jiao
translated by joseph crandall
105 pages.
ba shi according to jiang, was invented by yue wumu (yue fei) thus harkening back to the idea that yue invented at least part of this powerful and adaptable style.
=============================================

strength training anatomy authors: frederic delavier
category: book , paperback

===============================================

mosby’s handbook of anatomy & physiology
598 pp 464 in color , soft cover.
book harm079
================================================

[brucereiter]

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

Very important points.

[Syn7]

You mean there's no video? Does that surprise you? I have always assumed that the world is bigger than youtube.

No no, you got it all wrong JP. If it isn't on youtube, it never happened!

[Syn7]

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

I was never under the impression that any of you actually learned from The. I did make the assumption that your instructors did. Am I wrong?

If those teachers left Sin The and spent YEARS reforming the style with live resisting opponents, then I am willing to look at these people and re-assess. Show me something I can see to help me understand where the pride comes from. So far I am leaning to the "pride is from practice" side. You guys defend it simply because you put in the time and/or don't know any better. Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

[Judge Pen]

I was never under the impression that any of you actually learned from The. I did make the assumption that your instructors did. Am I wrong?

If those teachers left Sin The and spent YEARS reforming the style with live resisting opponents, then I am willing to look at these people and re-assess. Show me something I can see to help me understand where the pride comes from. So far I am leaning to the "pride is from practice" side. You guys defend it simply because you put in the time and/or don't know any better. Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

You're right. I am defending it because I put the time in. That's all I have. Maybe if I had the opportunity to have taken that time and devoted it to another art I would have been better. I might not have been. It would have depended on the teacher. My first teacher died in a tragic accident in 1994 so I can't offer him, but his passion and humanity inspired me to continue training even through the bull****. My second teacher was Garry Mullins' oldest son (whom I was 4 years older) and he taught in a small gym part time and we would meet one or two mornings a week at 5 am to train and fight. He was a good forms person, but not one of the best.

I've already posted some videos of his father and there have already been photos of Masters Nance and Reid. I can't put up better examples than that. If they still suck by your standards then ok, but I bet if you spent the afternoon working out with them you would walk away with a different impression. Youtube is a great tool, but its not the end-all-be-all to judging martial competency.

[Syn7]

Yeah, you have been pretty clear about your position. I used your post as a jump off to ask the others.

This isn't about my ability or the styles that I practice. If anyone wants to debate those styles, as a whole, by all means...

I never set out to critique any one of you specifically. Some of the dumber ones wandered into my radar, but aside from that, I really don't care about the individuals that participate in the lower and mid levels of SD.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've already posted some videos of his father and there have already been photos of Masters Nance and Reid. I can't put up better examples than that. If they still suck by your standards then ok, but I bet if you spent the afternoon working out with them you would walk away with a different impression. Youtube is a great tool, but its not the end-all-be-all to judging martial competency.

I can attest to this firsthand. They are both humble, and both very dangerous. And as big as they are, they are 1000X more subtle than I am (and I'm much smaller, and often "cheat" techniques). They could easily muscle most people, and yet they never do. It's quite frustrating when you reflect on it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

Again, the wrong line of thought. Don't rely upon anyone else's credentials. There are very traditional CMA schools I've visited that couldn't teach anyone how to fight, but they've got great videos.

I'll try to up the ante on the vid bit when I get a chance, but I'm busy nowadays. Might take a while.

[Leto]

Thank you for posting that correspondence, Bruce! It certainly adds to the narrative here, and is something to think about. His observations do make sense of a lot of what is going on, and it makes sense of why he always seemed so dour at the gatherings I saw him at with the Soards.