Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Kellen Bassette]

The only true uniform you will ever need is the clothes you are wearing when the moment comes for you to use your gung fu/ kungarate, or whatever.

whats with karate people taking chinese kung fu then infusing it into their systems?
whats with karate types who does karate while claiming its kung fu but he doesn't realize he moves karate.

what's with the what's with?

You lose something from both arts that way...

[Lucas]

I thought Bawang was above those Barbarian Mongol arts....

Not if he has a chance to force the sexy time

[themeecer]

Yeah, I guess a butterfly kick would lose some of its appeal in jean shorts and a flannel shirt...

That does it .. I am busting out my Daisy Duke's.

[Syn7]

Sure. With all the ****ery around I appreciate restraint. The dragon form is showy and not my cup of tea either, but that's what you tend to get at demonstrations. Like I said, its hard to guage real skill from videos. If there were specific criticisms on techniques that's one thing, but just to say someone sucked isn't very constructive (not saying that's all you are saying, but you should get my point). The only way to really guage someone's skill set is to spend some time with them. It's the subleties that do not always come across. I believe if you spent a little time training with Garry Mullins, Tim Nance or Mike Reid you would have a different position. I do not think your position would change if you did the same with Sin The.

Yeah, but you can use the info available to calculate the odds and make a decision on whether it's even worth your time going to see them.

When I asked for videos of the best representation of SD, I mean just that. I understand that people do flower dances to crowd please. Believe me, I see it in all sorts of performing arts. Especially dance. The crowd loves the acrobat and boos the skilled technician. Sad, but c'est la vie.

So show me a good demo that shows fundamentals without the flowery dancing.

I can find tons of you tube vids of old men who still have crazy ging even tho they can't do backflips and hold their foot above their head. Tricking isn't fighting. It's neat, but it's just a show.

[Syn7]

I respect GM The as a M/A but the lies bring question to motive and character. To be blind to ones short comings and faults is like a Divorce You can disown the wife or husband but the child will always be yours. The art or Child is made yours through time and effort " Kung Fu" . I no longer train in SD but still train in the forms etc. I respect the CMA and what I do .
Some of the greatest teachers I have had in life had less skill but could transfer knowledge well. Or they were great teachers and could get me to be a better M/A or musician or what ever. Too many place emphasis on skill of the teacher not the ability to teach. I have been better than a few of my teachers but did not respect them less. KC

That is by far the most intelligent thing I have seen you post. I'm still going to tear into it, but good for you KC.

Ok, a child is not comparable to a MA style. At least not SD. If you were part of a real MA family then maybe you could make that comparison. But you don't. SD is very impersonal by nature of it's size and the requirements for becoming a student. A master has a disciple and that disciple is family. He may sleep at the masters home, eat with the masters family etc etc. SD is not that personal. But even with a real legit master disciple familial style relationship, I still disagree with that analogy. The responsibility one has to an MA system is not in the same league as the responsibility to a child. Besides, most are loyal to their Sifu, not the art itself.


As far as the teacher thing goes, that has nothing to do with anyone being able to produce a good demo of SD. Still waiting. Yes it is true, some are better teachers than others. let's take three examples and you tell me who the better sifu would be. Example #1 a great instructor with a good knowledge base and average skill set or #2 A poor instructor with high knowledge base and great skill set, or #3 A great instructor with a great base and great skills. Who do you want to learn from? I would propose that #'s 1 and 2 are simply sub par and #3 is what it really takes to be a great instructor.

That being said, people get old and get hurt, but they still retain their experience whether they can still perform or not. Having been thru it and knowing for yourself what works and what doesn't is important in being a great teacher. We have gotten so used to sub par quality in our lives that we actually accept mediocre teachers. You can go find the best of both you know, it's not like it's that rare.

[Syn7]

My teacher did this 10 years ago. Although some ripped him for it I appreciated it when I started training with him.

That took balls. Good for him. I'm sure there are lots of good people involved. Don't misunderstand my critique of the GM and the style as a judgement on the character of every SD practitioner.

It will be interesting to see what happens after The buys the farm. I wonder what the style will develop into down the road. Who knows, maybe it will improve exponentially and become something else, something unique.

[Kellen Bassette]

That does it .. I am busting out my Daisy Duke's.

At least have the decency to make a video of it and post it here...

[Shaolin Wookie]

It is against the law to leave it at that, you must elaborate, or face Bawang in a naked mud wrestling match.

LOL. Not much of a story, but it was kind of amusing after the fact. On my 1st degree black belt test, GM The' was pairing up the students testing for the sparring session. He starts pairing people up, and as I watch, I notice that he's not pairing people up wisely (in my opinion). Then he gets to me. I'm about 5'9, 175 lbs (in pretty ****ed good shape). He pairs me up with a young 20-something chick who probably weighed 110 soaking wet.

Now, I have 2 speeds. Super slow mo, and super fast. And I pretty much lack anything in between. Add to this that I was cross-training in MMA at the time because I wanted more full contact experience that allowed me to use my wrestling experience. I didn't understand the pairing, since there was another chick exactly her size who would have made a better partner.

So GM The' commences the sparring session. I planned on just stalking around and maybe sweeping this chick with a throw ASAP, then just stalking around some more. Well, she comes out windmilling like there's no tomorrow, so Plan A went down the drain. I didn't want to hit her, so I covered, checked some feeble kicks with my shin, and did my best to stay out of her range (she was throwing punches without stopping to cover). I realized after about 10-15 seconds that this probably didn't look very good for me, and this was my 1st degree test, and that I would have to do something. So I tried to figure out where I could hit her and not leave a mark.

Since I had on these puffy gloves, I decided to drill her in the forehead. She wasn't covering her center, and her forehead looked good--it was all bone and wouldn't bruise if I stuck it to her with a stiff jab. I didn't want to hit her in the body, and I didn't want to break her nose, and I didn't think she could take even a half-power leg kick. So I waited, planted my foot, and threw a pretty stiff punch to her forehead. What I didn't think was that this would also look very bad for me. When I hit her in the forehead, her head snapped back like she got hit by a shotgun blast. She staggered back, looking at me kind of startled when she regained her balance.

I figured that would be enough to send the message that she shouldn't try to T-off against someone she didn't know, but after a couple of seconds she decided to come back windmilling like there was no tomorrow. I wasn't as patient this time, and so I blasted her in the forehead again. I figured this was fair--she didn't learn the lesson, and she didn't cover her center. She came in out of control. So when I hit her, I got the same result--her head went flying back and she staggered backwards.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Next thing I knew, GM The' was pushing me back up against the wall, telling me that I was out of control.

I was a bit angry at the moment because GM The' was totally off-base there. I was the only one who was in control. I threw only two punches, landed them right on target amidst a flurry of windmilling limbs, and spared my partner real damage. I was kind, patient, and sparing.

It really put a damper on the evening when I was sent to the corner to watch the rest of the affair, sitting Indian style on the floor.


Anyways, it was the only time my wife has ever attended one of my MA events (outside of a demo this year). She ridicules me for this. She never saw me training MMA or BJJ, and so doesn't really know that I can actually kick some serious ass when it comes down to it.

Every time we're watching an action flick and some small skinny chick starts kicking some male ass, my wife looks at me and says: "So, do you think you could beat her up?"

[Syn7]

So what exactly did you do wrong? Aside from the fact that you should have dumped her on her head, that is...

If he didn't want you to hit her, why did he pair you up?

And what the hell is a chica who spazzes out with such a horrible method doing at that high of a level? Lemme guess, she could do forms and in sparring nobody wanted to drop her, so she fell thru the cracks, right? Whatever the reason, that speaks volumes about the quality of instruction. People shouldn't be promoted simply for paying dues and showing up. Do the higher ranks pay more for lessons and testing?

[Shaolin Wookie]

So what exactly did you do wrong? Aside from the fact that you should have dumped her on her head, that is...

If he didn't want you to hit her, why did he pair you up?

And what the hell is a chica who spazzes out with such a horrible method doing at that high of a level? Lemme guess, she could do forms and in sparring nobody wanted to drop her, so she fell thru the cracks, right? Whatever the reason, that speaks volumes about the quality of instruction. People shouldn't be promoted simply for paying dues and showing up. Do the higher ranks pay more for lessons and testing?

LOL. More likely---like most traditional MA's, not enough respect is paid to a 65 pound weight difference.

You have to approach opponents differently based on reach, weight, etc. She went at me like she would if she was going at someone her size. And nevermind the storytelling---I call everything that isn't practical "windmilling." I definitley had more experience than she, so I considered it sloppy.

Not to be sexist, but I've rarely seen a chick in TMA who can kick much ass. Just being honest.

[Syn7]

So did she or did she not deserve her rank? What is the ranking based on? Martial ability or performance value, or both? If it's martial ability or both, how did she get so far? Nothing is more dangerous in a combat scenario than an overestimation of ones own skills. If people are promoted beyond what is earned, they are being set up for an ugly fall. It should be criminal.

So again, I ask, does it cost more for classes and testing when you reach the higher levels?

How much is the training? How much is the testing (a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with)?


Windmilling makes me think of the Simpsons when Bart and Lisa go at it.

[Judge Pen]

I had been told for many years that the short kata were pieced together by him in response to his student’s difficulties with the original material he had been teaching. I’ve never had a problem with that. I also had been told that Grandmaster Ie had traveled around picking up material that wasn’t originally in our curriculum.

I was told this too, and would not have a problem with it, but that's not what he said during his deposition under oath. He said he created short form from whole cloath, that it was based on the legend of the 108 lohan but that he did not know the 108 lohan, had not seen it before and did not know anyone who had seen it.

I agree with you sentiments on your personal interaction with The. I could repeat those sentiments. He has always been kind and treated me, my teachers and other students with respect. But that's not the point. What he said in the deposition is different than what has been said by him (through his speeches, websites, articles and books). He doesn't have to say this directly to my face for me to take umbridge with the representation.

I really wish he would just be upfront with his material and stop trying to legally protect something that he cannot. Both have gotten him in trouble and hurt his credibility with many people that otherwise would have continued to defend him.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but you can use the info available to calculate the odds and make a decision on whether it's even worth your time going to see them.

When I asked for videos of the best representation of SD, I mean just that. I understand that people do flower dances to crowd please. Believe me, I see it in all sorts of performing arts. Especially dance. The crowd loves the acrobat and boos the skilled technician. Sad, but c'est la vie.

So show me a good demo that shows fundamentals without the flowery dancing.

I can find tons of you tube vids of old men who still have crazy ging even tho they can't do backflips and hold their foot above their head. Tricking isn't fighting. It's neat, but it's just a show.

Look at the first three for fundamentals: http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ullins+shaolin

Not showy, but nothing more than basic skills for beginners. I don't have a video that I can post to that shows Mullins outside of a demonstration. The sparring classes of Nance are out there, and I hold him among the best of SD too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was told this too, and would not have a problem with it, but that's not what he said during his deposition under oath. He said he created short form from whole cloath, that it was based on the legend of the 108 lohan but that he did not know the 108 lohan, had not seen it before and did not know anyone who had seen it.

I don't know what to make of that deposition. There were clearly times when the witness didn't understand questions in haste to answer particulars.

Particularly, early on in the deposition does "come up" mean the same thing as "come up with"?

The way I understood it, GM The' says he and Hiang "came up" in possession of certain forms/styles. I didn't think he actually meant "created out of thin air," even though that's what the judge understood. I think that's why the lawyer interjected.

Anyways, he mounted a poor defense elsewhere (I think copyrighting intellectual property is a fruitless endeavor), and did admit to making up some stuff--Lohan included.