Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[hskwarrior]

I'd bet hsk and syn7 account for at least 75% of those posts...with only 1% of those filled with meaningful information. The other 99% are pics, slang, and big bold letters.

50% for me. the other two dikheads are part of this too. 'Specially dat spelling nazi LOLOL

BIG BOLD LETTERS

[themeecer]

'Specially dat spelling nazi LOLOL

Not a spelling Nazi, I make spelling mistakes all the time as well. I simply reason that if you are going to have a conversation with adults, you should at least try to sound like one.

[GeneChing]

You don't know how many submissions I get that have poor spelling, at which point I just have to sit back and say 'Seriously?'

But themeecer does have a good point, hskwarrior. This thread is huge and gets picked up by the search engines, so people who might be interested in SD will stumble on it pretty quickly. And I feel sorry for them. That being said, if they are totally naive about anything martial arts, they will judge the course of this laborious tiresome and rather tedious debate on such details as spelling and manners. In which case, assuming that your mission is in fact to discredit SD hskwarrior, you do your argument a great disservice.

Remember, the forum is all fun and games for us, but it is open to anyone with internet access, so it can have impact upon the casual onlooker.

[hskwarrior]

but themeecer does have a good point, hskwarrior. This thread is huge and gets picked up by the search engines, so people who might be interested in sd will stumble on it pretty quickly. And i feel sorry for them. That being said, if they are totally naive about anything martial arts, they will judge the course of this laborious tiresome and rather tedious debate on such details as spelling and manners. In which case, assuming that your mission is in fact to discredit sd hskwarrior, you do your argument a great disservice.

simple solution. Delete and start another. I'm done *****in about them stealing forms. They weren't considering our feelings when they stole our stuff, i don't see why i should respect them.

I'm actually kinda done with this forum i think. Any forum i guess. I'm tired of all the drama. Makes me wanna hang myself. So this is my good bye to this retched place. See ya round tha bend. Asta manana. Good bye cruel world.

PS I DIDN'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THEM. IT WAS MORE THE THIEVERY THAN ANYTHING. THE REST WAS JUST LUMPIN' EM UP A BIT.

AND THE SPELLING THING IS FOR OCD SPELLING NAZI'S.

[hskwarrior]

nah, i'm just messin' wicha. I'm not going anywhere. I'll always be right here. Watching. Observing. Ready........

[GeneChing]

Well played, hskwarrior.

i don't see why i should respect them.

It's not 'them' you need to respect. It's the casual observers, the lurkers. Obviously, you're not going to sway many SD people. The ones you want to reach are those who are undecided - the nooBs. They will judge your arguments here upon your approach and attitude, as much if not more so, than actual content.

[hskwarrior]

fair enough. still, i'll take the lumps it brings. since they didn't care enough to not steal from others, i see things a little differently than you. i do things differently. its what makes to world go round. oh i'm sorry....AROUND.

[GeneChing]

since they didn't care enough to not steal from others, i see things a little differently than you.

Indeed. One of the Buddhist vows I took was "A Disciple of Buddha is not possessive of the teaching". As a Songshan Shaolin practitioner, our forms are everywhere, so the issue you have is a non-issue for us. If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though. I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of the credit. When someone plagiarizes my published work, I'm more annoyed than flattered. Fortunately, it's easier now than ever to reclaim credit for such theft just by citing the earlier publication. I'd only be really annoyed if they made more money on it than I did. But then, I suppose I could sue for it. Not that this is a very likely outcome nowadays. There's so little money in writing now.

i do things differently.

Yeah, I *did* notice that.

[Syn7]

Remember, the forum is all fun and games for us, but it is open to anyone with internet access, so it can have impact upon the casual onlooker.

I see why this would matter to you. But I know you understand that it means nothing to me or people like me and the only reason we stay in line is out of respect for you and what your goals are. I will always test boundaries. It's just how I do. I'm a scientist and the world is my lab, and everyone in it is a subject. But I will never just outright freak out like some. I like to slide my insult in between valid points

[One student]

Let me pose this question. Purely hypothetical.

First and foremost I am NOT a Sin The proponent in any way.

Lets say that the same situation occurred in your given system or style that occurred in SD. Lineage was found to be bunk, forms created out of thin air etc...

Given the passion that a lot of you guys have for your given styles, and the amount of time that you have put into said style, what would your reaction be?

There are a plethora of SD'ers that have handled the situation differently. Some reject the system all together. Some admit the wrong doing and continue to practice because they enjoy what they do and history does not matter to them. Some still blindly follow Sin The to the bitter and historically inaccurate end and drink all the kool-aide they can stomach!

Im just curious as to what others would do if put into the same situation. And this is not directed at any particular person, nor am I trying to prove any point for one side or the other.

I think this is what it really comes down to. You have so many people, all over the country. And starting out from a time that martial arts was so new here, very few in this country knew kung fu from anything. But what Sin The showed was, or what would at least appear to anyone then as, martial arts. It had a variety that TKD and judo or karate for example did not: stand up, grappling, weapons, animals, internal, etc. And ST, at least then, could back it up practically by action. I have heard no one say that in the 60's and even 70's and 80's, Sin The's skill was anything but excellent. And that his brother who also taught from the same school, in the same school, and the same material, was also an excellent teacher and practitioner.

And at a time and place where quite frankly there wasn't much else to choose from. What else was available in the 60's and 70's? In many places, who aren't forutnate enough to live in bigger urban areas, what else is there to choose from even now?

And so he taught some material, that no one has said came from anywhere other than the schools and teachers he learned it from, in Indonesia, who were at least some part from China, and taught stuff that otherwise looked like what it was billed to be. And on visits there, saw it to be what it was billed to be, there.

And even though it appers, to say the least, some questions can now be raised about the source and origin of some of the things that have been said, and some of the material, many people have put a lot of time and effort into that material, and practicing it. And regardless of what others say about where it came from and how it has been presented, many people have gotten a lot from it, from pure fitness, to a lot more. And fair minded people here and elsewhere have commented on the continuing skills many SD teachers and long-time students have and are still able to demonstrate, many who have been named and shown. And there are people who practice it seriously who have gotten more self defense skill, fitness, and health, from it than if they were doing nothing, and more than that. There are SD students and practitioners who can hold their own against the best anywhere; and yes there are SD students and practitioners, as there are in all other schools and systems, who couldn't hold their own against anyone.

So people who really have no stake in it then call them names, ridicule them. For what? Mostly because the source of what they were told about it, or where it came from, may not be what they were told.

So you pose the proper question: do those people who have built the heart of their practice around the material and lessons in SD decide, because of the criticisms (right and wrong), to quit doing it? And at whatever age or experience, quit doing anything, or try to start over with something completely different -- which by the way may or may not work out better for them than the SD does -- or may or may not have available better options. Maybe not the best choices, but those might be the only choices -- or do nothing at all. Not everyone has a Shaolin monk, a CLF master, etc., down the street or across town. How many schools these days are a hybrid of things the owner of that school has picked up here and there and repackaged as their own -- saying so or not.

So if a person finds they have obtained great benefits from the Ie Chin Chings, from the breathing meditation and chi kung training; from the parts of Pa Kua, Tai Chi, and Hsing Ie they got; from the external forms and exercises and drills, and the later ones, too; have had fun doing it; and maybe know more about self defense and are fitter persons, with a lifelong training regimen to practice, all because of those things --even if supplemented by public books and videos and texts and other teachers, telling them more about the material than maybe they got in class (there are many examples on this forum who have done that and expanded what SD taught them) -- and are better at those things than they would have been without it; but then also find a lot of other martial arts persons hate them, make fun of them, criticize them because that is the practice they fell into, or because of what they wear, or what words they use, right or wrong. According to some they should just quit doing it, start over somewhere else or do nothing. And they are bad people if they don't.

I think instead it is a legitimate choice, if one in that position wants to continue practicing what they know under those circumstances, or for that matter want to start praciticing something that so many others across the country profess and demonstrate to get something positive from, and looks to have what they want in a system -- good for them. They don't have to buy into stories or get tangled up in who's lineage is better, or even if there is one. They don't have to like the fact that a false story was told about some parts of it. They should judge if they are going to get more from continuing to do it, or from starting it, than from the next available option. If they make that choice in an informed way, outsiders, other than natural haters or those jealous of something, should not be concerned or care. Spreading truthful, constructive, helpful information, that's a good thing. Hating for the sake of hating, that is not.

I went to buy a car. I wanted an American car, for probably bad economic but good nationalistic reasons. I looked at an American product at an American dealer, and it had the price and etc. that I wanted, more than the next thing. And then I found out it was mostly made in South Korea. I could have gotten rid of it. But I liked it so I kept it.

Sometimes you cut your losses. Sometimes you "double down" or "hedge your bets." Sometimes you do the best you can with what you have, and with the choices you have available. Although everyone is correct that going to or even staying with SD in pure blind belief it is something that it clearly is not -- not a good thing. But going to it or sticking with it, as a decision based on available choices, in an informed manner, not a bad thing. Even if that means going to a class or a seminar and picking something up that you couldn't readily get somewhere else. It may not be much better than buying the book or video to get the same thing. But it may not be worse either.

And the people who make that choice, for the good reasons, do not deserve others who do or do not have a stake in it to insult them, merely for that choice.

Yes, it may be rationalization. But at least that's one way of looking at it. And I'm sure its not the only way. I'm the last person to say that I can't be wrong, or that anyone who disagrees must be. But I could be right, for some people, in some situations.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone know a good source for more info about Hsing-I that is compatable with SD's forms?



Also, has anyone ever seen any hsing-i "turtle" like the "turtle" in SD's 12 animals?

[Syn7]

Indeed. One of the Buddhist vows I took was "A Disciple of Buddha is not possessive of the teaching". As a Songshan Shaolin practitioner, our forms are everywhere, so the issue you have is a non-issue for us. If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though. I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of the credit. When someone plagiarizes my published work, I'm more annoyed than flattered. Fortunately, it's easier now than ever to reclaim credit for such theft just by citing the earlier publication. I'd only be really annoyed if they made more money on it than I did. But then, I suppose I could sue for it. Not that this is a very likely outcome nowadays. There's so little money in writing now.

Yeah, I *did* notice that.

Yeah, I'm an open source guy myself. For me it isn't about ownership, but giving credit where credit is due. Even when I make music, I just give it to people I know to run with it and make a song out of it. Sometimes I will do the post-prod, but I don't really care. Once I put it out here I just let the process flow organically. I may charge for my time, but not for the product of that time. Make sense? Like with building electronics, I wont charge for the use of my design, just parts and labour for the product itself.

[brucereiter]

Does anyone know a good source for more info about Hsing-I that is compatable with SD's forms?



Also, has anyone ever seen any hsing-i "turtle" like the "turtle" in SD's 12 animals?

Several posts back I posted links to the book series that contains all of the hsing I taught by sin the. That is a good resource and is likely where sin the learned it from to begin with.

Jiang rong qiao has some good books about hsing i that were translated by joseph Crandall.

[brucereiter]

Good post onestudent...

[wenshu]

If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though.

I once saw a Shaolin Do proponent perform Da Hong Quan with laughably bad shenfa and he called it 'Tiger Panther Third Eye Rooster Face takes Golden Shower'

I said,
"Meh. So you went to Deng Feng and gave some random passerby a few cartons of smokes and a bottle of MaoTai Jiu in exchange for a few moves. Who hasn't done that?"