heh, let's not pretend that it's even remotely hard to locate most of the current contemporary shaolin forms online these days. Shi De Cheng and others have seen to most of that.Originally Posted by wenshu
Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!
Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.
Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.
Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.
Registered User
heh, let's not pretend that it's even remotely hard to locate most of the current contemporary shaolin forms online these days. Shi De Cheng and others have seen to most of that.
Master of Chu Bagua
It's like this.
Shaolin-Do teaches "sparring techniques" and "short forms." GM Sin made-up these techniques in order to teach forms-illiterate Americans how to do kung fu. These are very good techniques, when in the right hands. Many of the sequences are combinations of chinna, striking, and sweeping. Also, since they're the first thing you learn, and become the foundation for everything that you do learn up until black belt, they are also the most important things that you learn.
What was demonstrated in the video was how to take core principles in order to apply them to sparring in more advanced ways than TKD kicking fests (which most CMA turns into).
There are several "theories" of how to apply these short forms and sparring techniques (like KAT), but I've always felt that the fancier "theories" were a tad off base since they neglected the obvious (as I saw it). The sparring class was handled well, and the techniques were sound. But the sparring in the video (I'm in it, too) was a little confusing, since we weren't wearing gloves. I pulled everything prior to contact (and avoided the face), so I wouldn't consider it a demo of SD sparring itself.
Anyways, at most traditional schools I've visited and practiced with (as a beginner, mind you), you learn some basic punching drills, do some workouts, and then work on forms. When application time comes, it's usually 2-step moves with a compliant partner. You get the same thing in SD. But SD's beginner 2-step partner drills are usually more realistic, as I see them, than what I've seen at...say, a beginner Hung Gar school. Not hating, just expressing an opinion.
Some of these drills in traditional schools are just "made-up" ****. SD doesn't have a monopoly on that in CMA.But it always gets the hell kicked out of it for the same thing, even if its product is better in that regard.
As things develop, the belt-ranking system is tied to forms memorization. I'll admit that. And I've memorized forms that I would rather not practice (and do not practice a whole lot). But I'll keep them up for the sake of testing. What most people end up doing is specializing or leaving the art. Technique-wise, few competent MA's by the rank of black belt are looking around for applications. The core principles were sound enough to provide most answers, and centerline/gate theory fills in the rest. With a good teacher, you can learn xing yi, tai chi, and sevenstar mantis and get insight into the unique power of each art. With a bad one, you'll probably get xingchimantis.
Even when I cross-train, it's more about touching hands with other people to see how they solve problems. I have too many applications and forms--I don't need more.
How does it all come together? AS you practice more, you realize that the forms don't come together--they grow further apart. You become a better MA for making those distinctions. But this takes time (and much thought).
TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.
The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.
Sometimes it sticks, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes something you saw 3 years ago and didn't understand will suddenly make sense. Sometimes some teachers are very adept, and sometimes certain teachers are very inept.
Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 12-06-2012 at 08:06 AM.
Golden Alligator Master
I agree, very good post.
themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
-shaolinarab
(Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)
Master of Chu Bagua
Example: I took a takedowns seminar after studying the art for about a couple of months. I could perform none of the takedowns after the seminar (I wasn't skilled enough), but I perform many of them routinely now. I took notes back then, and then just left them on the backburner. But when I was skilled enough 4-5 years later, they were very natural takedowns (and embedded in many forms, as I saw quite clearly).
Sometimes this kind of teaching is very valuable. I've also been to schools where they won't let you progress until you perform a technique 100 times. ANd if you come back the next day, they'll make you do it another 100 times until you get it right (as the teacher sees it). This kind of repitition is valuable, at times, but think of what you DON'T learn when you become a microscopist of knowledge. Sometimes a little breadth goes a long way and works out in the long-run.
Since learning is subject-specific, I think most of the debate in this thread concerning SD's learning format boils down to people admitting the superiority of the learning format in which the particular person making the argument learns the best. Not exactly science, if you catch my drift.
Golden Alligator Master
LOL. It took me a second to figure out what xingchimantis was. This a struggle I have as an instructor. I have so much material to teach and I strive to improve on conveying these distinctions to my students. It is one thing to be able to do the material and an entirely different thing to have your students duplicate this.
I would jump at the opportunity to take a class or a series of classes that improves my skills as a teacher.
You knocked it out of the park with this analogy.
themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
-shaolinarab
(Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)
Banned
hi, mr wook. i have question pls. if SD equals a college Education compared to TMA as you put it, why are the students (black belts included) looking like they never make it past white belts. i see many SD videos lately and compared to TMA even the teacher of SD is at white belt level. i don't understand. TYHow does it all come together? AS you practice more, you realize that the forms don't come together--they grow further apart. You become a better MA for making those distinctions. But this takes time (and much thought).
TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.
The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.
Daper Dan Man
Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.
Daper Dan Man
This reminds me of a case another lawyer at my firm handled once. It was a bar-fight where one patron smashed a glass mug in the face of another. When interviewing the bartender about the altercation the question was asked about the guy that ultimately ended the altercation: "Was he a big guy?" The Answer: "No, but he wasn't no poodle-d ick either."
Banned
oh my apologies, i just haven' seen anyone yet to make me say wow. i woud really like to like SD, i am unable to say so far i found anything in SD that i see as high level..Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.
please share me, why would someone choose SD Tiger and Bird as opposed to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane?
Daper Dan Man
I wouldn't make you say "wow" either. But if we trained or sparred you would have respect for my ability to use what I know (regardless of what we now know about the source). Besides, making someone say "wow" and comparing them to a beginner are very different things.
To answer your question: if people did the research and had the opportunity, I wanted to train in a CMA style, I doubt anyone would chose SD over Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane. Maybe a parent that likes the structure of an SD class over the Hung Gar class that it is being compared to, or someone going to an SD class because there's a hot chick training there.
I've said this a dozen times, when I started training 20 years ago in a small Appalachian town in Southwest Virginia, there were few options. There was no real way to compare or research SD and contrast it with other arts purporting to be kung fu. I looked at the local isshin-ryu school, the local TKD school and the local "karate" school and thought that the training and teacher were superior in SD. Had there been a local CLF, Hung Gar, mantis, etc., I may have made a different decision.
Last edited by Judge Pen; 12-06-2012 at 09:15 AM.
Banned
oh ok ty
凸 囧 凸
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
(what the hell does 'current contemporary' mean?)
凸 囧 凸
If it's not compliant nonsense it's wild arm swinging and hopping around on one foot with the hands guarding the chest. Looks like all the other crappy kempo style 'sparring' you see in 99.9 of modern CMA schools.
I'll join you in damning with faint praise. It is the best of the SD clips presented thus far; at least it wasn't some watered down seminar tai chi cloud hands with no shenfa and zombie eyes. However, make no mistake; that's not an endorsement.
凸 囧 凸
http://www.wgu.edu/
For better to learn by
Great overall post SW. Especially the part quoted above. This analogy is exactly how I think of SD. Just to add to it, here are my thoughts and personal goals in practicing SD:
- With such a broad curriculum, it is nearly impossible for a teacher to "master" all of the SD material. However, since mastery is relative, I feel I can learn a helluva lot from somebody who has spent more time practicing and thinking about a specific style/application/training than I have. It's like they say, "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king."
- That being said, I DO think that teachers tend to specialize within a certain area of the overall curriculum. They will still teach the whole program as a base, but due to certain body types and individual interests they naturally gravitate towards a few specialties. Because of this, for example, I would never say that a SD teacher who teaches Ba Gua but doesn't really have a passion for it would be close to a Ba Gua teacher who has spent decades teaching just that art. However, there are definitely some SD teachers out there who have a real passion for Ba Gua (in this example) and have done whatever it takes to develop high skill in this art. They have expanded upon their base and spent a lot of time practicing, thinking, and developing their skill. Most likely, they have looked to outside resources to hone their skills further. I don't see any problem with this. Shouldn't one expect the same from their teachers? To continue learning and developing no matter what level they're at?
- Because of the above, certain schools will naturally have a higher level of teaching in specific programs. For example, at my school our Master has been practicing iron bone for over 30 years. It's obvious to me this is a specialty of our school and I hope to honor my school by training this as well. For other schools there are other specialties.
- All of this being said, my personal goal in SD is to develop my body, mind, and spirit primarily through training and conditioning, then to use that foundation in forms practice, application, and sparring. I fully expect to have to learn some forms that I don't have passion for. I full expect to, at some point, expand my training in a specialty area and to do whatever it takes to develop skill in that area. Maybe this means at some point I'll take additional lessons at a school that specializes in that art. But for the time being I will train hard in my SD material.
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