Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[GeneChing]

I see why this would matter to you. But I know you understand that it means nothing to me or people like me and the only reason we stay in line is out of respect for you and what your goals are. I will always test boundaries.

How members want themselves to be perceived is totally up to that individual. If we were control freaks about that, we wouldn't even bother with sponsoring this forum. My point is that this thread has considerable weight on the web. You can sully it with as much trash talk as you like, but in the end, that's a poor strategy, as the success or failure of SD will be based on its net reproductive success, and if your intention is to avenge a past insult leveled against your clan by SD with arguments that are just trash talk, that is a losing strategy. Better to hide in the temple for a few years, invent some new weapon, and come out swinging.

I do appreciate that our veteran members here like you Syn7, generally mind their Ps & Qs out of respect. In return, as a publisher, I defend this forum as a place where anyone can have their say (within reason), even to my bosses here (who are the ones who really pay the bills). To repeat a quote oft mistakenly attributed to Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That being said, I don't disapprove all that you all say, and it's not going to be to the death, but you get the general idea.

[Shaolindynasty]

I may not touch on everything but I'll touch on a few topics in depth

Shaolin-Do teaches "sparring techniques" and "short forms." GM Sin made-up these techniques in order to teach forms-illiterate Americans how to do kung fu. These are very good techniques, when in the right hands. Many of the sequences are combinations of chinna, striking, and sweeping. Also, since they're the first thing you learn, and become the foundation for everything that you do learn up until black belt, they are also the most important things that you learn.

What was demonstrated in the video was how to take core principles in order to apply them to sparring in more advanced ways than TKD kicking fests (which most CMA turns into).

Now we are speaking the same language. What are the core principles of shaolin do? For instance the core principles in CLF are as follows

The Ten Elements
the ten elements are 10 concepts based on different types of movement. These translate into different types of strikes. the elements are kum,chuen na, gwa, sau, chop, pow, kup, biu, ding, jong

10 elements with names and chinese characters
http://youtu.be/uuTBbKucwdI

another video of ten elements with view of the leg and footwork
http://youtu.be/_hn-nR6juC4

The 5 Kicks
same as the elements but for the lower body. The kicks are dik(or dan), chang, so, chou, tan
http://youtu.be/dHpOkkG7kL4

Gate theory
Dividing the opponents body up into sections to determine which angle is best to attack with what element or kick given the circumstance.

Asterisk footwork
or bagua footwork if you want to sound esoteric. refers to 8 different directions in which you can step invasively or evasively depending on the situation.

These concepts form the basis for the entire CLF system. The physical structure and strategies employed by a CLF practitioner supports the use of these concepts. The concepts come before the forms, the forms were created to be examples of these concepts employed in different circumstances. It's the same for any system of TCMA. Hung Kuen for instance has the 12 bridges, 5 elements etc. Taichi has peng, liu, ji, an, li, tsai, shou,cao etc. mantis likewise has its own concepts.

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.


As for CMA kick fests, that is more an issue of lack of understanding the use of the underlying concepts that causes that. It is important to develop a systematic and organized approach to teaching martial skills that reinforce the use of our respective systems. I wrote about the systematic approach at length on a blog article of mine that you can read here http://hungsingmartialarts.blogspot....on-static.html

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I am very much against the hit or miss teaching method as well as technique overload you mentioned. My personal experience has shown that a few concepts learned well through a systematic approach will serve you better than a general overview of alot of techniques. You mentioned it took 4 or 5 years to learn how to use the takedowns you learned well. With a more systemized approach it should have taken very little time.

For instance I trained a student who had no previous martial arts experience to compete in the legends of kung fu sanda tournament in 6 months time. we drilled only the clf concepts listed above with an emphasis on invasive side step with kup (an overhand swinging punch). below is video of his 2 fights. His first opponent was a fellow clf practitioner with 11yrs experience to his 6 months in this match my student is in red headgear. The 2nd opponent I'm not sure in this match my student is in black headgear. i also want to state that he was completely gassed in the 2nd match as he had to fight the 2 matches back to back. My students lack of ring expeience shows here but even with the nerves etc that come with that you can still see the concepts listed above being applied. http://youtu.be/P7OdDjZ0a50

[Shaolindynasty]

Actually I should add that the progressive method of training is how my school and the school I came from trains. There are plenty of CLF schools that dont really know all the concepts of the system and dont train to apply their art in this manner. They stick to the classic "step" type drills wild uncontrolled sparring and emphasize forms practice. I am not trying to pick on SD here because i recongise this is a problem throughout all of TMA. I am merely taking this opportunity to express my views on the subject

and class this joint up a bit LOL

[themeecer]

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

Nice drilling sets there Shaolindynasty. We don't have a predefined set like those beyond 2 sets of "one step sparring" techniques. I agree with you that some progression drilling would be very beneficial to training. Obviously it would aid in flattening the learning curve.

By the way .. congrats on the weight loss.

[kwaichang]

Believe Half of what you see and none of what you hear, and also just because its on the Internet doesnt make it true. There are real good MA in SD you just havent seen them and they dont care if you have or not. KC

[Shaolindynasty]

Believe Half of what you see and none of what you hear, and also just because its on the Internet doesnt make it true. There are real good MA in SD you just havent seen them and they dont care if you have or not.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not but it it is are you saying people can believe half of what they see from me and nothing of what they hear from you?

Nice drilling sets there Shaolindynasty. We don't have a predefined set like those beyond 2 sets of "one step sparring" techniques. I agree with you that some progression drilling would be very beneficial to training. Obviously it would aid in flattening the learning curve.

By the way .. congrats on the weight loss.

It really does flatten the learning curve. It was designed by us because we feel that everyone in our school should be able to use what they are taught to maintain a certian standard. and thanks for the compliments

[kwaichang]

I am saying do not judge by what you see on the Internet. Many SD people are good in MA and good fighters. SD drills alot of conditioning and application. So some not all are pretty good at their fighting. The U Tube stuff is not to be the tell all know all of SD. But if Shaolin Dynasty put the films of him up he looked real good to me in his technigue. So what I meant was do not judge all SD people by what you have seen thus far. KC

[Judge Pen]

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.

In all fairness, I think that is exactly why SD is so sloppy in its forms and many of the people we see on the web are not well represented. SD does not have a well-articluated core (regarding the terminology for different strickes and theories). They are drilled through the short-form and sparring technique and those techniques creep into most all of the different forms of SD (even when the underlying forms may have different concepts at work). I think this mish mash allows for a lot of indendent thought and expression in the art. My own individual technique and style may vary significantly from someone else because of my individual talents, limitations and understanding of technique. I use what I can make work for me, but someone else many be of equal skill with the same experience that has a different skill set.

We have plenty to criticize about the history, lineage and ethics of SD and its founder. What you've identified above is a valid criticism of the system as its taught. There's a counter-point to this that I was recently discussing with a gentlemen that is still actively training that I will try to articulate when I have more time.

[wenshu]

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I don't know anything about CLF but you might want to tell your men not to jump backwards like that after every exchange; very bad habit.

[Syn7]

Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.

It's not about you. It's about the fact that there are a shit ton of SD "black belts" on youtube that absolutely suck. Even if there are great SD BlackBelts, this is still absolutely unaccptable. That doesn't mean you suck, or that every SD guy sucks. It means that many are promoted to levels they are not capable of defending. Of course some folks just don't have it in them and aren't willing or capable of putting in the effort needed to truly achieve an advanced level. And then there are others who don't care about getting good, they just like the workout and the company. That's awesome that they enjoy themselves, but don't promote these people.

I honestly believe that more emphasis is put on time in rather than skill out and belts are given too easily for one simple reason. Money. Some people would just go somewhere else if they weren't advancing enough. I think SD either had no standards to begin with or caved to that sort of pressure.

You DO NOT advance ANYONE who has not EARNED it with SKILL. NOT money and time.

A BB should not forget moves, look sloppy. If you are a "onepunch" you should not have a BB. I don't care if you are male or female, young or old, the skill level should be the same. It's not an honorary title and should not be bought or freely given for any reason other than to reward pure skill and execution.

The ONLY exception is people who earned it with skill then got old and lost their physical abilities. In this case, honorary titles are great. They earned it, it's theirs for life. It's like a doctor who gets old or ill so they cant perform any more. They still deserve their degree, even if they cannot execute the skills anymore. A wise person in that position takes up the role of grandfather and passes their skills orally with instruction and critique rather than by example. Which is totally fair enough and very valuable. But remember, these people actually earned their titles in the first place. Nothing more useless than a BB that could never execute the skills they are supposed to have.

[Snipsky]

t's not about you. It's about the fact that there are a **** ton of SD "black belts" on youtube that absolutely suck.

he's saying what i was too scared to say. you would think some "GOOD" SD students would post some GOOD material to outbalance the bad stuff we see. me too, i would love to see something good from SD. i love good martial arts. its sad to see black belts looking worse that white belts.

in the video of the demo in the gym, the two or three man forms, the ones not performing are just roaming around, spectating rather participating

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/DPxto_g1kiw
Enjoy and beware he will be coming for you next KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

In all fairness, I think that is exactly why SD is so sloppy in its forms and many of the people we see on the web are not well represented. .

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties. Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/Ml4HjaI3iXk Not Chinese but note , this is Real Kara Te, not anything like SD. KC

[Snipsky]

This person is Shaolin Do Black Belt right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPxto...ature=youtu.be