Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[hskwarrior]

from my first session with skt this was referred to as karate. never heard skt refer to what was presented as gung fu, ever.

so why do people get their panties in a bunch when i say what SD does is prettified KARATE again???????

you have a group apology. now get over it.

so YOU are designated to speak for Sin The and the clan? they appointed you to speak for them?

I left sd long ago, still practice a lot of the material and enjoy chatting with some of the folks that I trained with. I have no love for many of the sd leaders as I did not care for the way they ran things, spread bs or outright lied to me. some of it was personal and I took it as such. that does not change history or the fact I was a mamber of that group for over 30 years. some of the people in that group are outstanding people and some are talented martial artists. I am not into name calling or running down someone else just to make myself feel better. I had hoped the adults in here would be better than to stoop to such behavior. some of you guys need to grow up.

thats why TM's new forum is the prime place for you guys to discuss your SD stuff.

[OldandUsed]

if anyone has their panties in a bunch, it is you. i never picked up the 5 animal form and still am not interested in it, but i do not put down someone for what they choose to practice. if you do not want people picking it up except from your class, don't put it in a book or video and sell it.

no, i have not been appointed anything, just as you have not been appointed the spokesman for the gung fu community to harrange the sd people.

my effort was directed towards putting out there that the vast majority of us simply do not care what others think of us. we do not answer to you guys and what you say does not have any bearing on what we do, other than be an irritant much like flies at a picnic.

i plan on participating in the other forum.

[hskwarrior]

if anyone has their panties in a bunch, it is you. i never picked up the 5 animal form and still am not interested in it, but i do not put down someone for what they choose to practice. if you do not want people picking it up except from your class, don't put it in a book or video and sell it.

so if you have nothing to do with it, why is YOUR panties in a bunch? i'm glad you're not interested in it, its not meant for you. look, if you want to practice Kungarate, thats your choice. but freedom of speech. like that one sucka who TRIED to insult my sifu, i as well as HE knew he was full of sh1t.

your LAST sentence is exactly the reason why YOU GUYS disgust me, cause YOU for one don't see the problem with learning something from a book, YOU don't see anything wrong with repacking it and reselling it. lastly, DFW printed that book without ever asking or checking it its ok with us. WE have never put anything in a book as of yet.

what i think i'm going to do is like YOU. I'm going to steal some SD material, give it a new name and history including performing it better than ANY OF YOU. I might even claim that hairy monkey guy as my own lineage and tell the world you guys are the straight up frauds that you stole the history and stuff from me.......

nah, what the fuk was i thinkin.....i'd never get caught practicing fake sh1t

[MasterKiller]

[hskwarrior]

i'm reporting you for animal cruelty. LOLL

[BroncoBB]

so if you have nothing to do with it, why is YOUR panties in a bunch? i'm glad you're not interested in it, its not meant for you. look, if you want to practice Kungarate, thats your choice. but freedom of speech. like that one sucka who TRIED to insult my sifu, i as well as HE knew he was full of sh1t.

your LAST sentence is exactly the reason why YOU GUYS disgust me, cause YOU for one don't see the problem with learning something from a book, YOU don't see anything wrong with repacking it and reselling it. lastly, DFW printed that book without ever asking or checking it its ok with us. WE have never put anything in a book as of yet.

what i think i'm going to do is like YOU. I'm going to steal some SD material, give it a new name and history including performing it better than ANY OF YOU. I might even claim that hairy monkey guy as my own lineage and tell the world you guys are the straight up frauds that you stole the history and stuff from me.......

nah, what the fuk was i thinkin.....i'd never get caught practicing fake sh1t

Well if it makes you feel any better I do see the problem with it. If SKT lifted the form from someone else (and it's entirely possible he did) than to teach and represent it as exclusive and original temple material is at best disrespectful and intentionally deceptive. I've only seen the form once and that was 10-12 years ago. Boise teaches it but I am unable to do it justice and have not really had any interest in adding another form to an overblown repertoire.

When you combine that problem with the fact that SKT and others within Shaolin Do have pursued legal action against people teaching the art the situation becomes rather pathetic. If the form is original to CLF ("If" not being used in a context of speculative but merely alluding to the fact that I don't know enough about the form to speculate where it came from) then the correct thing to do would be to call it what it is and preferably to gain permission to teach it (I know....not happening). Problem is to go that route would tear apart the whole house of cards the Shaolin-Do mythos is based on. It might be right but we all know it won't happen. Like I said HSK, I don't teach it but if I ever get to the point where I do maybe some research and reliable education will help.

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not? Hiang The teaches a wide variety of material that follows the SD line closely and th question is how much of this they learned jointly in Indonesia and how much might have been pieced togather after they came to the states.

To another point. What do you all think will happen when SKT isn't around? The schools have already fragmented and as TTM said he's seen 3 different versions of that 5 Animal form. I can tell you from personal experience that students from the western schools look vastly different in their execution of material and that quality varies widely depending on interest level and ability of instructors. The beign said when SKT goes does a cohesive shaolin-do system go with him?

Also guys I'm fine with good discussion and I believe I have shown willingness to concede when someone has a point. I won't call you names and I won't enter into an argument just to stand ridgidly on one side. If we disagree then we do and that's fine. All I ask is that we stay civil and try to learn from each other.

Finally I do know where a lot of you are coming from. With 10 years of judo behind me I don't believe there's anything funnier than a Shaolin-do "down and ground fighting" class.

[hskwarrior]

Well if it makes you feel any better I do see the problem with it. If SKT lifted the form from someone else (and it's entirely possible he did) than to teach and represent it as exclusive and original temple material is at best disrespectful and intentionally deceptive. I've only seen the form once and that was 10-12 years ago. Boise teaches it but I am unable to do it justice and have not really had any interest in adding another form to an overblown repertoire.

When you combine that problem with the fact that SKT and others within Shaolin Do have pursued legal action against people teaching the art the situation becomes rather pathetic. If the form is original to CLF ("If" not being used in a context of speculative but merely alluding to the fact that I don't know enough about the form to speculate where it came from) then the correct thing to do would be to call it what it is and preferably to gain permission to teach it (I know....not happening). Problem is to go that route would tear apart the whole house of cards the Shaolin-Do mythos is based on. It might be right but we all know it won't happen. Like I said HSK, I don't teach it but if I ever get to the point where I do maybe some research and reliable education will help.

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not? Hiang The teaches a wide variety of material that follows the SD line closely and th question is how much of this they learned jointly in Indonesia and how much might have been pieced togather after they came to the states.

To another point. What do you all think will happen when SKT isn't around? The schools have already fragmented and as TTM said he's seen 3 different versions of that 5 Animal form. I can tell you from personal experience that students from the western schools look vastly different in their execution of material and that quality varies widely depending on interest level and ability of instructors. The beign said when SKT goes does a cohesive shaolin-do system go with him?

Also guys I'm fine with good discussion and I believe I have shown willingness to concede when someone has a point. I won't call you names and I won't enter into an argument just to stand ridgidly on one side. If we disagree then we do and that's fine. All I ask is that we stay civil and try to learn from each other.

Finally I do know where a lot of you are coming from. With 10 years of judo behind me I don't believe there's anything funnier than a Shaolin-do "down and ground fighting" class.

thanks bro. nicely said.

[sean_stonehart]

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not?

"Yang 64" - Cheng Man Ching's 37
"Yang 24" - PRC 24
"Classical Pakua" - Jiang Rong Qiao's Bagua
Chen Taiji - Chen Xinjia Yilu
Xingyi 5 Roads, 12 Animals, Linkage, Stick, Sword
Hua To's 5 Animal Play
Hua Quan 1-4, Two Man Sets #1 & #2
Tiger Crane Duet - Hung Ga
Shaolin 5 Animals - Choy Lee Fut
Entwine Dragon Stick - Tian Shan Pai
"Pick & Play Hands" - Zhai Yao Si Lu (not sure of the PM Branch)
Thrust Fist - Cha Chui
Crushing Step - Bung Bo
White Ape Comes Out of Cave - Pak Yuen Chut Dong
Springy Legs - Tam Toi (not sure which version)

Other sets of dubious origin but I can't place them so I'm not saying anything regarding them

Chain Whip
4 Spears at 1st black
Li Kwei Axes
Chain Whip Broadsword set

I know some of those have been pointed by Bruce & others in some set of books, but I haven't seen them personally. However the first set of forms listed, I have seen up close & personal (or knew the SD version) & they are clearly from elsewhere uncredited & unacknowledged.

[bodhi warrior]

"Yang 64" - Cheng Man Ching's 37
"Yang 24" - PRC 24
"Classical Pakua" - Jiang Rong Qiao's Bagua
Chen Taiji - Chen Xinjia Yilu
Xingyi 5 Roads, 12 Animals, Linkage, Stick, Sword
Hua To's 5 Animal Play
Hua Quan 1-4, Two Man Sets #1 & #2
Tiger Crane Duet - Hung Ga
Shaolin 5 Animals - Choy Lee Fut
Entwine Dragon Stick - Tian Shan Pai
"Pick & Play Hands" - Zhai Yao Si Lu (not sure of the PM Branch)
Thrust Fist - Cha Chui
Crushing Step - Bung Bo
White Ape Comes Out of Cave - Pak Yuen Chut Dong
Springy Legs - Tam Toi (not sure which version)

Other sets of dubious origin but I can't place them so I'm not saying anything regarding them

Chain Whip
4 Spears at 1st black
Li Kwei Axes
Chain Whip Broadsword set

I know some of those have been pointed by Bruce & others in some set of books, but I haven't seen them personally. However the first set of forms listed, I have seen up close & personal (or knew the SD version) & they are clearly from elsewhere uncredited & unacknowledged.

I agree with all of these but with a few exceptions. They are taichi64, classical pakua, hsing ie, but I can see how they may have been learned from books.
I know the chain whip as Hiang teaches looked pretty legit having seen him perform it.

[Syn7]

Saying this same message over and over again (even if in larger and bolder font) doesn't make it so.

I really have no particular interest in this form but your arguments don't really hold water IMO. TTM has offered an alternative backstory to this form that sounds like it has just as much to it as your story.

TTM can't even explain why his "Shaolin" form has HSCLF elements. It's pretty obvious man.

But, to be fair, he has till xmas. No excuses. He's been talking trash about this research for awhile now. More than enough time to produce something, anything, that would explain away the fact that SD is using HSCLF elements when they have ZERO connection to HSCLF.

Don't think people don't notice that you guys conveniently gloss over this VERY OBVIOUS fact! It's just that simple. There is NO way HSCLF would be visible in this form if your version was from a branch that separated off the line before Lau Bun. It's proof. Very obvious and reliable proof.

If I can see the HSCLF in Jakes form(as bad as it is) then surely somebody who actually knows HSCLF can break it right down for you as to what is truly unique to HSCLF that "magically" made into SD's sad version of the form.


Keep clawing at the moon, son. It's totally workin' out for ya!

We all know people who are stubborn and dead wrong who walk around with their heads high anyways. Pride has made you weak. You're moving away from logic, not towards it. Occams razor! Learn it. Understand it. Recognize!!!!!!

[Syn7]

ok, so skt has presented some made up material, some borrowed and modified material and some material he took from other systems and presented as something handed down from the mount and called it shaolin. all of you "legitimate" gung fu guys laugh at sd and call sd-ers wannabes and do not feel sd community at large deserves any respect. is that about it? well, ok, you got it. so what?

many of us on this thread in this forum have no argument about that or any of the opinions held by the "legitimate" gung fu community, we just do not care.

from my first session with skt this was referred to as karate. never heard skt refer to what was presented as gung fu, ever. the signs, the handouts were all sin the' karate club. did he tell some tall tales about the background and the material? yup, and he said it was reputed/legend. did any of us truly believe what he said? well, maybe a few bought that stuff, but the majority of us just took it as entertainment.

all of the bickering and bad-mouthing bs is distasteful and serves no purpose. hsk, you feel wronged because something you did not develop, but learned from your association with your sifu, has been purloined by skt and taught to some of his students. ok, you have been wronged. you have a group apology. now get over it.

the rest of you guys that want to bash sd, go find another thread/forum and dedicate it to sd bashing. jeez, give it a fricking rest.

I left sd long ago, still practice a lot of the material and enjoy chatting with some of the folks that I trained with. I have no love for many of the sd leaders as I did not care for the way they ran things, spread bs or outright lied to me. some of it was personal and I took it as such. that does not change history or the fact I was a mamber of that group for over 30 years. some of the people in that group are outstanding people and some are talented martial artists. I am not into name calling or running down someone else just to make myself feel better. I had hoped the adults in here would be better than to stoop to such behavior. some of you guys need to grow up.

No, he has gotten an apology from a small minority of the SD posters here and resistance from even more. If you don't want to talk about it then back off. You step into the middle of a fist fight and it's your own fault when you catch a stray. Or even a well aimed intentional shot. You did that to yourself. So you agree, what happened was wrong. Help your boys understand that, or if you really don't care back the fuck off already. Be the man you think everyone else should be and stfu and watch the game already!


That being said. I think you seem like a pretty nice guy and I'm sorry if any of this hurts you. But if you are telling the truth, it doesn't. So let it be. Pick a side or back off.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM can't even explain why his "Shaolin" form has HSCLF elements. It's pretty obvious man.

But, to be fair, he has till xmas. No excuses. He's been talking trash about this research for awhile now. More than enough time to produce something, anything, that would explain away the fact that SD is using HSCLF elements when they have ZERO connection to HSCLF.

Don't think people don't notice that you guys conveniently gloss over this VERY OBVIOUS fact! It's just that simple. There is NO way HSCLF would be visible in this form if your version was from a branch that separated off the line before Lau Bun. It's proof. Very obvious and reliable proof.

If I can see the HSCLF in Jakes form(as bad as it is) then surely somebody who actually knows HSCLF can break it right down for you as to what is truly unique to HSCLF that "magically" made into SD's sad version of the form.


Keep clawing at the moon, son. It's totally workin' out for ya!

We all know people who are stubborn and dead wrong who walk around with their heads high anyways. Pride has made you weak. You're moving away from logic, not towards it. Occams razor! Learn it. Understand it. Recognize!!!!!!

you keep proving everyday why most people should keep their opinions to themselves.

[tattooedmonk]

No, he has gotten an apology from a small minority of the SD posters here and resistance from even more. If you don't want to talk about it then back off. You step into the middle of a fist fight and it's your own fault when you catch a stray. Or even a well aimed intentional shot. You did that to yourself. So you agree, what happened was wrong. Help your boys understand that, or if you really don't care back the fuck off already. Be the man you think everyone else should be and stfu and watch the game already!


That being said. I think you seem like a pretty nice guy and I'm sorry if any of this hurts you. But if you are telling the truth, it doesn't. So let it be. Pick a side or back off.

Once again another post pointing the way.

[Syn7]

you keep proving everyday why most people should keep their opinions to themselves.

And again you side step the obvious question. Answer it already. Show me YOUR version and show me why there are no HSCLF elements. Step up, man up.

[hskwarrior]

And again you side step the obvious question. Answer it already. Show me YOUR version and show me why there are no HSCLF elements. Step up, man up.

if the person had anything of worth to this issue he would have posted it by now. he has zero.

i think he's afraid he wioll get laughed at. he won't post anything