Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Leto]

How does any of the information you linked relate to the history sin the has stated?

Just for clarification please answer the following;

-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and kiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?

I am very confused with the information given at sinthe.com. See below. This is what sin the claims.

I have posted the sd timeline several times on this thread. It simply does not make sense.

I know, you'd think they'd at least revise the story to correct glaring errors. Like, he was born in 1943 in Indonesia, but his parents left China when the communists came into power, in 1949? The more detail they try to add, to make it sound more authentic, the worse it gets because whoever is telling this story doesn't know enough about history to get the facts right (and can't be bothered to do some cursory research, apparently).

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
OK this article itself speaks of 3 different souther temples this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.
http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richa...oshaolinsi.doc
Read on Boy. learn something now instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt of your stupidity. KC

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. my info predates that current info which doesn't support your claims in the least. your attempt was retarded. feble..... is more attached to you and your kwaichang philosophy. got anything else that might help you? so far you're running on fumes.

[Empty_Cup]

The only KNOWN Fukien Temple of the 1800's is the one that was burned down in 1760. After that, there was no temple there and they are still trying to confirm its location today. but for sure, 1850-1866...NOPE. It didn't exist.

Reference?

[hskwarrior]

Reference?

do a search on the triad and shaolin.

[Judge Pen]

I know, you'd think they'd at least revise the story to correct glaring errors. Like, he was born in 1943 in Indonesia, but his parents left China when the communists came into power, in 1949? The more detail they try to add, to make it sound more authentic, the worse it gets because whoever is telling this story doesn't know enough about history to get the facts right (and can't be bothered to do some cursory research, apparently).

I never heard the story about his parents leaving China in 49. I was told he was born in Indonesia.

[kwaichang]

Practically everyone knows about the Shaolin martial arts in China. Did you know that there is not one, but three temples in Fujian that claim to be the true historical home of Southern Shaolin?



Read on...............







A little history
The Manchus overthrew the Ming dynasty, lovalists (the Southern Shaolin amongst them) rallied to restore the Ming government - this is the reason for the popularity of the term si ming (思明), or remember the Ming. As part of the fight, even their monastic greeting changed. In the Northern Shaolin monastery, monks greeted each other by clasping their palms together, as if in prayer. In the south, monks brought their right fist toward their left palm in front of their chest (if you can't picture it, watch any kungfu movie - period or contemporary). The combination of the right fist / left palm symbolised the Chinese character for Ming.

The Qing emperor never forgave nor forget the Southern Shaolin's treasonous ways and ordered the complete destruction of the temple, with instructions that it was never to be rebuilt. The Southern Shaolin thus faded into the mists of history, and it's only been in recent years that there has been renewed interest in pinpointing its actual location.

Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

Putian Southern Shaolin Temple, Lin Shan Village, Jiulian Mountain, Xitianwei town, Putian (莆田县西天尾镇九莲山林山村)

Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple
After that disappointing trip, we were less-than-enthusiastic about getting on another bus to take us to Quanzhou, home of another alleged Shaolin temple. However, I had a map of Quanzhou, and it was clear that Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple was close to the city centre and accessible via public bus.

It was clear from the moment we entered this second claimant to the Southern Shaolin throne that there had been a lot more money lavished on this temple. There were youths who were summering there as kungfu students, a few monks could be seen going about their daily lives, and even a young man who volunteered to be our guide. He was more than happy to tell us the history of the temple.

According to the Qing-era publication, Records of the Western Mountain (西山杂志), the Quanzhou Shaolin Temple was first built in the year 611, more than 1,300 years ago. None of the original temple stands, as it had been destroyed and subsequently rebuilt three times. In 907, Wang Shenzhi, a rebel who created the 'Min Kingdom' during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (and was responsible for trying to eradicate the surname Shen), razed the temple to the ground as the monks opposed his rule. It was rebuilt during the Northern Song dynasty. In 1236, it was destroyed again, under orders of the Southern Song Dynasty government. Its final destruction occurred in 1763. The monks in the temple supported the Qing against the Ming (see above), and Emperor Qianlong ordered the complete destruction of the temple (and the murder of all who lived there) in vengeance He also forbade the rebuilding of the temple.

There is no denying, however, that Quanzhou's Southern Shaolin temple is in a picturesque location, and is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Just don't expect to see anything historical in nature - reconstruction began in 1992, and a 'second phase' is under works.

Quanzhou Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongyue Mountain, Quanzhou (泉州市东岳山少林寺)



Fuqing's Shaolin Temple



Most ironically (and perhaps fortunately), it is the most convincing aspirant to the throne of Southern Shaolin that we visited last. The temple in Fuqing is where there are direct historical references to the Shaolin monks. Unlike the temples in Putian and Quanzhou, it is named in 12th, 15th, and 16th century publications and excavations produced Song era pottery with the Chinese characters for Shaofin (少林). The national Cultural Relics Bureau eventually determined that there had truly been a Shaolin temple in that location.
As we sat (and napped, for it was a 6:00 am start this time) through our three-hour bus journey, then waited a few minutes in the hot Fujian sun for our driver, Mr Wei, to appear, I began to worry that this temple would also be a letdown. Mr Fu had said more than once that this temple was rather remote, and expressed surprise that I even knew of its existence.



The physical location of Fuqing's Shaolin temple gave us a good feeling from the start. Secondly, as only the middle section of the temple has been rebuilt (according to the woman manning the gift counter, the local government does not have the money to rebuild the rest), some ancient foundations remain. They are marked and untouched (and unprotected against the ravages of time and inclement weather). I actually felt joy at seeing these ruins, whether it was a wall, support columns, or the monks' toilet block - here was history, real history, not something that had been demolished and rebuilt as a replica of the original.

This time, I was grateful that the temple grounds were practically deserted; I had the opportunity to clamber among the ruins, furiously taking snapshots using both my digital and film cameras with no one getting in the way of my viewfinder. There was even an ancient grave in the top corner - graves are of some personal interest to me, and to find one that could have been the final resting place of a real Shaolin monk? What a treasure!

It saddens me that there is a real possibility of these ruins being covered over and a brand new temple built in its place - once there is enough money. Being a big fan of history, it is my fond hope that the Fuqing local government understands the value of preserving, net replacing, these monuments, as they are an important part of China's long history. Building replicas just doesn't leave visitors with a real sense of what has been.



Fuqing Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongzhang Township, Fuqing County (福清县东张镇少林寺)


Guang bing has a long history in Fujian, primarily in the Fuzhou area. In 1563, Qi Xuguang (戚继光) - invented a biscuit that could be strung around the neck and eaten as needed, making military life (and prosecuting war) much easier for his soldiers. The biscuit soon became popular amongst the citizens, even making its way onto tables of offerings to long-dead ancestors. The 'guang' in guang bing is in honour of Qis memory.





The verdict? If you're not fussy about your temples and you don't have a lot of time, visit Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple. It may be lacking in real historical character, but it is a very peaceful and well-maintained site. My vote, however, is for Fuqing's Southern Shaolin, especially if you're a history buff. There, old toilets are wonderful things.




SOURCE: Andrea See; Fang Fang and

Wang Jing contributed to this article

A map I viewed shows 6 possible locations.
This article was edited but these people mention 3 temples of possible Shaolin heritage. My Question to all is which temple do you speak of when you say southern Shaolin tsu

[hskwarrior]

yet all that info you posted still doesn't support your claim that the hairy monkey was in a shaolin temple.

But this is the one in regards to the Hung Mun's Shaolin, the one with the 5 monks surviving its destruction. i'm a ranked member of one of the 5 shaolin monk's tongs.

Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

[brucereiter]

Again none of the information you presented has anything to do with the claims sin the has made. What are you trying to say?

Let me ask you again...
-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and jiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?

Practically everyone knows about the Shaolin martial arts in China. Did you know that there is not one, but three temples in Fujian that claim to be the true historical home of Southern Shaolin?



Read on...............







A little history
The Manchus overthrew the Ming dynasty, lovalists (the Southern Shaolin amongst them) rallied to restore the Ming government - this is the reason for the popularity of the term si ming (思明), or remember the Ming. As part of the fight, even their monastic greeting changed. In the Northern Shaolin monastery, monks greeted each other by clasping their palms together, as if in prayer. In the south, monks brought their right fist toward their left palm in front of their chest (if you can't picture it, watch any kungfu movie - period or contemporary). The combination of the right fist / left palm symbolised the Chinese character for Ming.

The Qing emperor never forgave nor forget the Southern Shaolin's treasonous ways and ordered the complete destruction of the temple, with instructions that it was never to be rebuilt. The Southern Shaolin thus faded into the mists of history, and it's only been in recent years that there has been renewed interest in pinpointing its actual location.

Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

Putian Southern Shaolin Temple, Lin Shan Village, Jiulian Mountain, Xitianwei town, Putian (莆田县西天尾镇九莲山林山村)

Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple
After that disappointing trip, we were less-than-enthusiastic about getting on another bus to take us to Quanzhou, home of another alleged Shaolin temple. However, I had a map of Quanzhou, and it was clear that Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple was close to the city centre and accessible via public bus.

It was clear from the moment we entered this second claimant to the Southern Shaolin throne that there had been a lot more money lavished on this temple. There were youths who were summering there as kungfu students, a few monks could be seen going about their daily lives, and even a young man who volunteered to be our guide. He was more than happy to tell us the history of the temple.

According to the Qing-era publication, Records of the Western Mountain (西山杂志), the Quanzhou Shaolin Temple was first built in the year 611, more than 1,300 years ago. None of the original temple stands, as it had been destroyed and subsequently rebuilt three times. In 907, Wang Shenzhi, a rebel who created the 'Min Kingdom' during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (and was responsible for trying to eradicate the surname Shen), razed the temple to the ground as the monks opposed his rule. It was rebuilt during the Northern Song dynasty. In 1236, it was destroyed again, under orders of the Southern Song Dynasty government. Its final destruction occurred in 1763. The monks in the temple supported the Qing against the Ming (see above), and Emperor Qianlong ordered the complete destruction of the temple (and the murder of all who lived there) in vengeance He also forbade the rebuilding of the temple.

There is no denying, however, that Quanzhou's Southern Shaolin temple is in a picturesque location, and is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Just don't expect to see anything historical in nature - reconstruction began in 1992, and a 'second phase' is under works.

Quanzhou Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongyue Mountain, Quanzhou (泉州市东岳山少林寺)



Fuqing's Shaolin Temple



Most ironically (and perhaps fortunately), it is the most convincing aspirant to the throne of Southern Shaolin that we visited last. The temple in Fuqing is where there are direct historical references to the Shaolin monks. Unlike the temples in Putian and Quanzhou, it is named in 12th, 15th, and 16th century publications and excavations produced Song era pottery with the Chinese characters for Shaofin (少林). The national Cultural Relics Bureau eventually determined that there had truly been a Shaolin temple in that location.
As we sat (and napped, for it was a 6:00 am start this time) through our three-hour bus journey, then waited a few minutes in the hot Fujian sun for our driver, Mr Wei, to appear, I began to worry that this temple would also be a letdown. Mr Fu had said more than once that this temple was rather remote, and expressed surprise that I even knew of its existence.



The physical location of Fuqing's Shaolin temple gave us a good feeling from the start. Secondly, as only the middle section of the temple has been rebuilt (according to the woman manning the gift counter, the local government does not have the money to rebuild the rest), some ancient foundations remain. They are marked and untouched (and unprotected against the ravages of time and inclement weather). I actually felt joy at seeing these ruins, whether it was a wall, support columns, or the monks' toilet block - here was history, real history, not something that had been demolished and rebuilt as a replica of the original.

This time, I was grateful that the temple grounds were practically deserted; I had the opportunity to clamber among the ruins, furiously taking snapshots using both my digital and film cameras with no one getting in the way of my viewfinder. There was even an ancient grave in the top corner - graves are of some personal interest to me, and to find one that could have been the final resting place of a real Shaolin monk? What a treasure!

It saddens me that there is a real possibility of these ruins being covered over and a brand new temple built in its place - once there is enough money. Being a big fan of history, it is my fond hope that the Fuqing local government understands the value of preserving, net replacing, these monuments, as they are an important part of China's long history. Building replicas just doesn't leave visitors with a real sense of what has been.



Fuqing Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongzhang Township, Fuqing County (福清县东张镇少林寺)


Guang bing has a long history in Fujian, primarily in the Fuzhou area. In 1563, Qi Xuguang (戚继光) - invented a biscuit that could be strung around the neck and eaten as needed, making military life (and prosecuting war) much easier for his soldiers. The biscuit soon became popular amongst the citizens, even making its way onto tables of offerings to long-dead ancestors. The 'guang' in guang bing is in honour of Qis memory.





The verdict? If you're not fussy about your temples and you don't have a lot of time, visit Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple. It may be lacking in real historical character, but it is a very peaceful and well-maintained site. My vote, however, is for Fuqing's Southern Shaolin, especially if you're a history buff. There, old toilets are wonderful things.




SOURCE: Andrea See; Fang Fang and

Wang Jing contributed to this article

A map I viewed shows 6 possible locations.
This article was edited but these people mention 3 temples of possible Shaolin heritage. My Question to all is which temple do you speak of when you say southern Shaolin tsu

[tattooedmonk]

Its possible that it was a guang dong ( kwantung) temple , not Fukien

[kwaichang]

Do I believe GMT mastered 900 forms , No. Do I think a hairy monk was at a Southern Shaolin Temple, ? My answer would be which one?. I do not know from what Temple the legend sprang. Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill. That is where I think much of the SD curriculum may have derived. But then I am just one person. I think there was more than one Southern Shaolin Tsu. Maybe not called that.
I believ Ie Chang Ming traveled with him so I think Some forms came from The Southern Temple and some from travel and some from Kun Tao in Band Dung. So I do not know how a form is counted but I am sure there were alot, how many who truly knows . I dont , only one person knows and that isnt anyone on this site. So no one can speak with absolute authority about it , only speculation.
Now as far as Taichi 24 who knows where he learned it and how he links it to his training and as far as Pa Kua Chang same there . But I do not feel those 2 things mentioned came from the Shaolin Temples directly , but cn be liknked to it in a convoluted way. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Again none of the information you presented has anything to do with the claims sin the has made. What are you trying to say?

Let me ask you again...
-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and jiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?

We know this is untrue.

JH's article says he (su kong) only learned about 300 forms.

It's obvious which forms were added later.

[kwaichang]

Is it karate , NO is it CMA yes, but through time it has changed into a different mechanical animal. With different mechanics. Is it effective as a fighting art ? Yes for some. Some of the forms are more suited to that than others. KC

[hskwarrior]

Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill.

wait did you just say SKILLED martial artists hid out in Circus's? as if they were some kind of carnival attraction like the hairy guy? what circus's did they hide out in. can you link me to something the mentions the word CIRCUS?

[brucereiter]

Do I believe GMT mastered 900 forms , No.

I agree. In my opinion that is a far fetched and unfortunate lie that he could or did "master" 900 forms specifically the internal material.

The problem I have is that he specifically claims that he has mastered 900 fors that he learned from ie Chang Ming who learned from su kong who got the material from Fukien Shaolin temple.

If you go by sin the's words this would imply that the yang 64 form, tai chi 24, jrq Pakua, chen xin jia, hsing I and several of the other internal material was learned at a Fukien temple before 1930. Su kong is said to have died in 1928...

This type of misinformation calls everything sin the has ever said into question.

How do you explain this?

Do I think a hairy monk was at a Southern Shaolin Temple, ? My answer would be which one?. I do not know from what Temple the legend sprang.

I would love to know also.

Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill. That is where I think much of the SD curriculum may have derived. But then I am just one person.

But that contradicts what sin the has claimed.

I think there was more than one Southern Shaolin Tsu. Maybe not called that.
I believ Ie Chang Ming traveled with him so I think Some forms came from The Southern Temple and some from travel and some from Kun Tao in Band Dung. So I do not know how a form is counted but I am sure there were alot, how many who truly knows . I dont , only one person knows and that isnt anyone on this site. So no one can speak with absolute authority about it , only speculation.

Regardless of how many temple locations there may have been there is enough misinformation presented that it is very confusing trying to put together a accurate history of the material that those of us who have been involved in sd practice. Sin the could choose to help but as far as I can tell he will not.

Now as far as Taichi 24 who knows where he learned it and how he links it to his training and as far as Pa Kua Chang same there .

It was officially called the "Shaolin 24 combination tai chi" when I learned it in sd.
I was told it was a ancient for of tai chi just like the monks used to practice.

Of coarse this is not true. Why does sin the make information like hat so blurry?

But I do not feel those 2 things mentioned came from the Shaolin Temples directly , but cn be liknked to it in a convoluted way. KC

I don't think they came from any Shaolin temple... But Sin the specifically makes claims on his website and in his book about where they came from. Sin the claims that they did.

Maybe some students from the 70's or 80' were told a different story but the students of the 90's were told a bunch of lies.

[brucereiter]

We know this is untrue.

JH's article says he (su kong) only learned about 300 forms.

It's obvious which forms were added later.

Regardless of the article sin the claims to have learned 900 forms and mastered 900 forms.
Are you implying the internal stuff is not part of that 900?

It is obvious if you look at history presented by others but if you look at the history si the presents I do not find it to be obvious.