Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

i think what people mean when they say that is that cheng man chings 37 posture form aka yang 64 as taught in sd was not practiced at any shaolin temple.

kc do you think it was?

[GeneChing]

shaolin may have picked up tai chi somewhere but it doesn't mean sin the legitimately learned it.

Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is.

[hskwarrior]

Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is.

i know you know i'm saying legitimate is actually learning it from a guy who learned it from his teacher who learned it from his teacher and so on. NOT ....."oh, i picked up this tai chi book and will be teaching classes on it. I'm charging $25 dollars a head. come and experience the awesomeness of this Tai Chi (i learned from pictures in a book)."

[GeneChing]

...but given all vast number of tai chi teachers, especially at the low levels like at community and senior centers, I don't see this a particularly viable argument.

[hskwarrior]

...but given all vast number of tai chi teachers, especially at the low levels like at community and senior centers, I don't see this a particularly viable argument.

no argument. it is what it is. i don't know tai chi. but i do know Thai Stick.

[pazman]

KC,
Zheng Manqing's form and the 24 form that are taught in Shaolin Do were never practiced at Shaolin. I've stated it before but it would be a series of amazing coincidences for The to have learned those forms in Indonesia. For that to happen, one of Zheng Manqing's students would've had to travel to Indonesia and train The. The only people training the 24 in the late 50s and early 60s were either the wushu coaches making the 24 or people in mainland China in reeducation camps. These are two unlikely things happening together. In either case, they are not and have never part of any Shaolin syllabus. On a lot of Shaolin Do websites they present The as being a grandmaster and the two forms mentioned as being a part of Shaolin syllabus.

So....we should just assume that he learned them here in USA, perhaps from teachers. From who, we don't know, but from the videos we can see that he in no way mastered the material and is not qualified to teach taiji.

I learned the 24 taiji from a volleyball coach for fun. I "legitimately" learned the form from somebody, but I am in no way qualified to teach it as a "grandmaster" and if I said the form was a traditional part of a "sanda syllabus" I'd be lying.

[Syn7]

I found this posted by Gene Ching in the what is known about Shaolin Kung fu,

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn't really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

That tells us nothing. So they did TaiChi. And??? I'm sure many styles have been adapted into the Shaolin curriculum. Doesn't mean they made it up themselves. Infact this info does more to show the subjective nature of the argument and how we CAN NOT make many definitive statements with the current info and it's reliability. This does NOT help your argument.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you don't do your position any justice.

[Syn7]

Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is.

I'm thinking a teacher that would emphasize actually remembering the movements would be a good start. Most of what I see SKT do seems so damn disconnected. Like he doesn't practice at all. Just uses his memory to muddle through it.

[Syn7]

no argument. it is what it is. i don't know tai chi. but i do know Thai Stick.

"I don't need no karate bullshit, I know 2x4" A direct quote from an old friend that always kept a hatchet in his pack.

Ironically, he is waist deep in CMA now. Total 180.

[Syn7]

KC,
Zheng Manqing's form and the 24 form that are taught in Shaolin Do were never practiced at Shaolin. I've stated it before but it would be a series of amazing coincidences for The to have learned those forms in Indonesia. For that to happen, one of Zheng Manqing's students would've had to travel to Indonesia and train The. The only people training the 24 in the late 50s and early 60s were either the wushu coaches making the 24 or people in mainland China in reeducation camps. These are two unlikely things happening together. In either case, they are not and have never part of any Shaolin syllabus. On a lot of Shaolin Do websites they present The as being a grandmaster and the two forms mentioned as being a part of Shaolin syllabus.

So....we should just assume that he learned them here in USA, perhaps from teachers. From who, we don't know, but from the videos we can see that he in no way mastered the material and is not qualified to teach taiji.

I learned the 24 taiji from a volleyball coach for fun. I "legitimately" learned the form from somebody, but I am in no way qualified to teach it as a "grandmaster" and if I said the form was a traditional part of a "sanda syllabus" I'd be lying.

Well, he did have alot of informal students who may have believed they were better than they were. It isn't that far fetched to believe one of them ended up in Indonesia for at least some time and/or had a "student" that did. Possible, but the timeline is kinda tight.

But yeah, no Shaolin. Maybe in a convoluted 18th cousin kind of way. But nothing relevant to this discussion.

Occam's Razor tells us that SKT learned it in the US after he started his school. From a book or a teacher.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ie Chang Ming left China for Indonesia around 1928...according to the SD timeline. Taji 24 form was created in 1956 in Beijing.

Why is there even a discussion about it being handed down from Shaolin??

Whatever the relation between Shaolin and traditional Tai Chi, there is no relation to the modern 24 form.

Created, 1956, Beijing. How do you learn it pre 1930's in Fujian Province???

[Syn7]

Relating it to Shaolin is simply retarded. Not even going there.


SKT came to the states when? 64? So that would give him a decent window to have learned the form in Indonesia assuming an undocumented student made that trip from Taiwan to Indonesia in that time frame. And didn't he say he learned it from some nutcase? That reeks of bull**** excuses to justify a lie. But it is possible this nutcase learned the form somehow. He says he met the guy in 58. So the timeline is tight and very unlikely, but possible. Or does The claim to have learned the form from Ie Chang Ming?

Speaking of Ie Vhang Ming. I always hear stories of the KF master who defeats soldiers then flees. I believe that most of these stories that are inflated over and over again. Starting with like "Political ideals made him a target for the gov and he fled" and ends up with "defeated many ruffian soldiers in the good battle against evil and fled to protect his family". Weak.

[kwaichang]

The article shows Tai Chi was practiced at shaolin. MA were brought into the temple from out side sources. GMThe did not say Tai Chi was from the temple but was associated with it and developed further there. Also he said he was taught by others in Indonesia but later was a select pupil of Master Ie.
As far as argument or proving something I am merely posting articles or exerpts and what I have been told or learned, i am not trying to prove anything to any one, or convince anyone of anything. Just Joe friday " just the facts " thats all I want to see. Many post hearsay or opinion on here. KC

[kwaichang]

Those on here that do tai Chi should push hands with Master Leonard or Joe Schaefer in Texas, you will be schooled very quickly in Push hand , JS in austin defeated the push hand champion while on one of the trips to China I believe it was 2002?. any way i guess their skill was just dropped out of the sky. KC

[hskwarrior]

ohhhh push hands, thats gangsta