Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Old Noob]

you want to suck on what?

You're a douche and you can't read evidently.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://youtu.be/cCWXkNTB4h4

Seems like every time someone wants to turn an SD form legit, it turns into ballet.

They're holding the stick wrong. The recoil from a strike would knock it from their grip, and if you were to simply strike their sticks, it'd be an almost instant disarm. The "point the stick like it's a Harry Potter wand" technique is foreign to stick-weilding martial arts outside of Hogwarts. Always hold it like a hammer (well, not always, but almost always).

You get a stronger strike, and it always sets you up for your next strike. Their "hopping forward with Wingardiam Leviosa" technique is especially bad.

If you really thought a stick was a sword, maybe it'd make sense. But then why not use a wooden sword, like every other martial tradition in....um...well....recorded history?

[Shaolin Wookie]

A comment posted just a couple of pages ago brought something to mind.


Has anyone ever been encouraged to do a form just like GM Sin? I've been to 2 seminars with him (maybe 3), back when I was a noob...but I wouldn't pay for one ever again. I've never heard anyone say we should do anything like GM sin, and I've never honestly thought such a thing.....ever. I'm not being a douche....just honest. And personally, I don't care how he does any form or technique. Forms and techniques work with a person, or they don't. There's no "do it like he does" if it doesn't work. It has to work, and it had better be somewhat direct and simple.

Then again, I know that Atlanta is a different animal than say, Kentucky or Texas.

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

[Leto]

A comment posted just a couple of pages ago brought something to mind.


Has anyone ever been encouraged to do a form just like GM Sin? I've been to 2 seminars with him (maybe 3), back when I was a noob...but I wouldn't pay for one ever again. I've never heard anyone say we should do anything like GM sin, and I've never honestly thought such a thing.....ever. I'm not being a douche....just honest. And personally, I don't care how he does any form or technique. Forms and techniques work with a person, or they don't. There's no "do it like he does" if it doesn't work. It has to work, and it had better be somewhat direct and simple.

Then again, I know that Atlanta is a different animal than say, Kentucky or Texas.

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

I was the same way. Attended a few seminars with him and was never impressed by his movement. I have heard people still in the system insist that he is amazingly strong and amazing at everything, and that they have witnessed amazing feats of his prowess. I have come to believe that these stories are a form of self-deception, repeated over and over again until they are accepted as truth. It is true that when he was young he had a great physique, we've all seen the pictures. That's the best I can say personally, never saw him on video or in person do anything that would warrant the praise.
As for copying his movements, it was never verbally expressed...but as he is the grandmaster and originator of the system, it is implied that he has the greatest skill and knowledge and would be the epitome of what any student of the system hopes to achieve, right? I would expect people to copy him, assuming they believe that his knowledge of the material is deep and profound and his performance based on a lifetime of practice. That's why he's the master, right? He's supposed to know something that we don't? A good teacher provides a good example for study and emulation, can show you how to do something and make it work. Yes, you still have to make it work for you, but the teacher's example should set you closer to being successfull. If you have to ignore your teacher's example in order to make something work, there is something wrong, isn't there? Yes, at some point an advanced student will innovate and hopefully surpass the teacher, but a person shouldn't be there after less than 6 months of training.

[bodhi warrior]

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

In the KET series, gm sin demonstrates sparring tech #17 on bill Leonard. The transition from knee trap to roundhouse was lightening fast. I had to rewind it a couple of times to make sure I saw what I saw. It was so fast.

[Oso]

“If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy, so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust.”

—Shaolin Grandmaster
—Sin Kwang Thé

from this page

http://portlandshaolin.com/shaolin.php

[Judge Pen]

Come to think of it, I'm lucky I didn't accidently kill someone in all those tournaments I fought in.

Seriously, no apologies necessary. That quote is utter B.S. If I remember correctly, he was even cross-examined on that quote in his deposition.

Regarding GMS' movement, I have to echo the comments that while I was a part of the system I never wanted to copy his movement. I too have heard tells from teachers I respect telling me how fast and powerful Sin The is/was, but it was always in the past and nothing I have never witnessed for myself. At the end of my SD time I will say that I was impressed with his stamina and flexibility during seminars considering his age, but that alone doesn't make a master. His form always seemed sloppy and hokey and it was after my teachers would work up a form that it felt like there was some power and marital intent behind it.

I have seen the KET tapes and recall, specifically the sparring technique bodhi warrior references. He was quicker then, no doubt, but his form, for bagua and taiji, were still awkward.

[Oso]

lol, yea, cuz my insurance was only so good

[Judge Pen]

lol, yea, cuz my insurance was only so good

I should have just put that quote on my t-shirt. Then it would be assumption of the risk.

[FullPotentialMA]

To frosh2786:

I suggest you visit a variety of the schools in your area and witness the classes themselves. My own eclectic approach to martial arts has been rewarding for me. Other styles whether Korean or Japanese can find Shaolin roots in their history.
Many of the foundation techniques: kicks, punches, blocks, etc. have minor variations but remain quite similar. No matter what you study, you might consider a system that reinforces your own natural strengths, body type, and personal tastes.

s

Cannot agree more: search yourself. Find a good instructor that you like and where you feel a connection. Don't worry about what the martial arts system is called.

[Syn7]

While I agree that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, the cover is usually a good indicator of what you will find inside. So yeah, if it has a dumb name that does not mean it is no good. But be weary.

If you are looking for traditional MA's, then yeah, the name does matter. If you just wanna learn to fight, go to the place that best demonstrates combat effectiveness. If all they do is forms and stand up point sparring, that's cool, but you'll prolly get served in a real fight. It really depends on your priorities. If personal cultivation is your goal, that's ok, but stop saying it will work in a realistic situation. That's straight up fraud. It's irresponsible and down right dangerous. I can't tell you how many people I have seen get knocked around because they believed they could fight because they take MA's. It's a dangerous reality check.

As for teachers, knowledge is more important than their execution... BUT they should be able to produce students that can execute.

That being said... SKT has absolutely horrible form. It's weak and sloppy... straight up.

[Empty_Cup]

As for teachers, knowledge is more important than their execution... BUT they should be able to produce students that can execute.

...

And what makes you think there are no students who can execute in SD? What does "execute" mean in your opinion?

[Syn7]

And what makes you think there are no students who can execute in SD? What does "execute" mean in your opinion?

I never said there wasn't. I have seen about 20 or so videos posted in here as examples of good kung fu and have yet to see it, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyone that can. I have no desire to grade every SD practitioner. Besides, it's just my opinion, why should anyone care, right. Either you can fight or you can't. I don't really care either way if you get knocked around. My comment was more of a general statement. But hey, if you want me to start bashing SD again, we can do that. It's not my fault you threw money and time at a fraud. Shoulda done your homework, son.

[Leto]

We've had some time now since the revelation of the deposition and the last time the origins of the material was discussed. Has there been a change in the dialogue concering the origins of the material, for those of you still in the system? For those teaching the system, what do you tell your students on this topic?
Is there an official statement or revised history sent for instructors to relay?

Does anyone believe the deposition testimony was a lie and only an attempt to protect a copyright claim, implying all the material is mostly intact from the Bandung school, including the lower belts?

Does anyone believe the testimony is completely true as stated, and that material was created "from scratch"? If so, which material is that?

Assuming that the tesimony was not a complete lie, and that some of the material is changed significantly from what was taught in Bandung, what do we believe is a Sin The creation and what traditional?

SKT or Bandung? mostly SKT? mostly Bandung?
1. 20 sparring techniques
2. 30 short forms
3. 30 chin na
4. 9 one step sparring
5. 10 fighting techniques
6. si men tao lian
7. fei hu chu dong
8. tai peng sin kune
9. lohan chien
10. chu ji gun (blue belt staff)
11. bei fang qi gai bang
12. san he chien
13. white crane forms
14. shaolin bird forms
15. chie chien
16. lian wu chang
17. ching kong fu hu chien
18. black tiger forms
19. tang lang chien
20. drunken forms
21. fu chia chien

[sean_stonehart]

Well somebody got confused between SKT & Green Dragon from Ohio because #11 (stick set) appears to be the same.

http://youtu.be/cCWXkNTB4h4

#12 is a variation of the lifted & shared Saam Chien found all over Fujian from what I can tell.

#15 & #16 could be lifted from elsewhere & SD'd

The rest... who knows...