View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #18751
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    Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

    Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

    Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  2. #18752
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    Well here's an example of Five Ancestor's

    http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk

    You mix that with the Pentjack Silat & you might get that distillation. I'm no where close to being able to guess that.

    And you figure that SKT & HKT have lived here since the 60's with only trips back to Indonesia, along with that's not the characters SKT/HKT use for their names... I'm calling coincidence.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  3. #18753
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

    Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

    Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.
    The flavor is very similar to the forms Master Hiang teaches. But I've never seen these routines. Master Hiang did spend extended periods in Indonesia during his early years here in the states, from my understanding. I don't know if he taught there.

  4. #18754
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean_stonehart View Post
    Well here's an example of Five Ancestor's

    http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk

    You mix that with the Pentjack Silat & you might get that distillation. I'm no where close to being able to guess that.

    And you figure that SKT & HKT have lived here since the 60's with only trips back to Indonesia, along with that's not the characters SKT/HKT use for their names... I'm calling coincidence.
    Oh yeah, I'm not doubting the fujian and wuzuquan influence on what the guy's doing. It's just the name of the master that caught my eye, the fact that it's from Bandung, and it's performance and techniques look a lot like stuff we see in SD.
    I would say wuzuquan is a good candidate for at least one of the styles that had input into SD, based on the version of saam chien. San he chien looks a lot more like the wuzuquan version of the form compared to some of the white crane variations I've seen. I wonder if the "shaolin bird" forms may have had their inspiration there as well. Adjust and shorten the forward stances a bit, slight adjustment to some of the hand positions, and it could look a lot like wuzuquan or southern lohan. Unless san he chien was just transplanted into the system by SKT for variety (which is alwas possible, like we see with tiger crane duet, five animals, and others) I would think that some of the forms contain elements of the style which san he chien belongs to. Clearly si men tao lian is inspired by a similar southern system. Even if SKT created the sequence, he appears to have learned something from a Fujian style. The question I have is, how much of the system is Fujian influenced and how much is Shandong or northern influenced. We know some of the brown belt forms used, jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu, are clearly northern influence. What I wonder about really are the black tigers. Sometimes I look at them and see clear northern shaolin influence, but another part I see a southern sort of guangdong flavor in them, and then bits I think might be silat/cimande as well. Equally I wonder about the brown belt white crane forms. SKT creations? Or Kuntao amalgams of fujian, silat, and something else?
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  5. #18755
    In the video he submitted to the Copyright Office, his technique is very sloppy and at one point he nearly drops a sword. Doesn't look like Master level performance at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Come to think of it, I'm lucky I didn't accidently kill someone in all those tournaments I fought in.

    Seriously, no apologies necessary. That quote is utter B.S. If I remember correctly, he was even cross-examined on that quote in his deposition.

    Regarding GMS' movement, I have to echo the comments that while I was a part of the system I never wanted to copy his movement. I too have heard tells from teachers I respect telling me how fast and powerful Sin The is/was, but it was always in the past and nothing I have never witnessed for myself. At the end of my SD time I will say that I was impressed with his stamina and flexibility during seminars considering his age, but that alone doesn't make a master. His form always seemed sloppy and hokey and it was after my teachers would work up a form that it felt like there was some power and marital intent behind it.

    I have seen the KET tapes and recall, specifically the sparring technique bodhi warrior references. He was quicker then, no doubt, but his form, for bagua and taiji, were still awkward.

  6. #18756
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCT View Post
    In the video he submitted to the Copyright Office, his technique is very sloppy and at one point he nearly drops a sword. Doesn't look like Master level performance at all.
    How can one obtain a copy of this video?

  7. #18757
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    who is that supposed to be a pic of. KC
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  8. #18758
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    who is that supposed to be a pic of. KC
    From what I can gather, the pic is Hiang sr. There is a man named Sifu Fred Decramer who says he studied from Ie Chang Ming and Hiang sr in 1966. He has a website: http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/ . They're in the Netherlands. Check out the lineage chart. I'm not sure what the relationship is between Ie Chang Ming and Hiang sr. is. Maybe relatives.

  9. #18759
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    That is interesting, he has the same pic of su kong as sin the does.
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  10. #18760
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    Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  11. #18761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.
    I don't think it's likely "Hiang Sr" is their father. For one, he seems much too old. He would have been 47 when he had Sin The and even older for Hsiang The...

  12. #18762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Cup View Post
    I don't think it's likely "Hiang Sr" is their father. For one, he seems much too old. He would have been 47 when he had Sin The and even older for Hsiang The...
    Charlie Chaplan sired children into his 70s.

    And the photo's of "Hiang Sr" are some of the photos that a former poster sent to MasterKiller claiming they were of Ie Chang Ming. Counld it be that Ie Chang Ming and Hiang Sr. are the same?

    Very interesting find, but like everything it raises more questions than answers.

    Check out these photos:

    Also, check out the videos here:

    http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/video-1/

    Very similar flavor to many of our ippons, chin na and street fighting techniques. Also look at the first video at :57. Starts out with virtually the identical application from the opening of Se Mong Tai Lai.

    I don't know any of our monkey forms, excpet for ground monkey, so I'd be curious to get other's take on the flavor of some of the techniques and forms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  13. #18763
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Charlie Chaplan sired children into his 70s.

    And the photo's of "Hiang Sr" are some of the photos that a former poster sent to MasterKiller claiming they were of Ie Chang Ming. Counld it be that Ie Chang Ming and Hiang Sr. are the same?

    Very interesting find, but like everything it raises more questions than answers.

    Check out these photos:

    Also, check out the videos here:

    http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/video-1/

    Very similar flavor to many of our ippons, chin na and street fighting techniques. Also look at the first video at :57. Starts out with virtually the identical application from the opening of Se Mong Tai Lai.

    I don't know any of our monkey forms, excpet for ground monkey, so I'd be curious to get other's take on the flavor of some of the techniques and forms.
    They can't be the same person becuase the lineage chart on the Dutch site lists both Hiang Sr and GM Ie.

  14. #18764

  15. #18765
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    So where is Ie in the photos? All we have is paintings of him. And I was making that statement as another person claimed these photos were actually of Ie Chang Ming.
    Last edited by Judge Pen; 04-24-2013 at 07:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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