Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Iron Palm]

Anyone wanna go undercover and train there for a month to tell us how crazy it is over there?

I spent some time with him a while back, and I can tell you that he definitely does things his own way. I've personally observed him learn things and immediately begin practicing them differently, so much so that it led me to question whether we had been watching the same person (not that the Soards and/or GMT were worthy of direct emulation anyway).

I've also seen him teach the same form markedly differently from year to year, but then so did my other instructors, so I don't know if that's his problem alone. Actually, the lack of consistency is what ultimately drove me to quit SD altogether. The "original, deadly, ancient, ultimate, perfected, shaolin" forms were changing every time they were taught.

[Kymus]

Thanks for the info, Iron Palm!

Really, the beak thing is just a criticism of Jake Mace; it's that among many other obvious things.

..and man, what is it with the Soards? No one but their students seem to like them (and even then....). They sound to me like a bunch of money grubbing a$$es that build up a cult of personality about ST and... I feel like I should take a shower just thinking about them. I think I've heard about them more than anyone in SD!

[bodhi warrior]

Actually, by my count it would be 30 to 40 forms. Some of the stuff that Sin The claimed to make up was taught independantly in Indonesia (the videos that were removed confirmed that). So you look at all the SD material that is unique to SD and cross reference it with what Hiang The is teaching and that's a pretty good indicator of the unique SD material. Add some of the other material that we know came from Indonesia (Buddha Fist, Ground Dragon, 14th and 15th Crane) and that's a list of material that I feel fairly confident is unique to SD.

All the stuff that is taught elsewhere: taiji, bagua, xingyi, hua, the identifiable mantis forms, etc., then that could have been pilfered from other sources or some of that material could have been taught in Indonesia (will will never know which is which).

I agree. The core material that's shared between Hiang and Sin is what was learned in Indonesia. And that's some of the stuff I like the most.

[Lucas]

Anyone wanna go undercover and train there for a month to tell us how crazy it is over there?

if i was there i would do it for the sh!ts and giggles.

i remember watching some mantis garbage of his and when he was using an arm wrapping 'technique' he refered to his hand as a mantis beak....

[Kymus]

if i was there i would do it for the sh!ts and giggles.

i remember watching some mantis garbage of his and when he was using an arm wrapping 'technique' he refered to his hand as a mantis beak....

I think we should raise money and then send you and Bawang there with hidden cameras.

.....................I don't think Bawang would last a day without getting himself thrown out

Really, I've got nothing against SD teachers (well, except Jake Mace, who should really know better than to call what he does "ancient Kung Fu"), but the Soards seem to be the lowest denominator of what is essentially a dysfunctional family.

[kwaichang]

I can see by watching the youtube vids of mace why people think SD is a sucky system. He sucks. A Tae Kwon do guy who cant do the SD system like it should be done. Also I have never heard the term Monkey Beak, in one form Shaolin Bae Yen Tang Lang Chien it has the word monkey hand to describe a hand position but that is it. I am aware of the History and the non Chinese style emphasis placed in Sd, and feel it is like most systems , and has been altered by time . It happened in HK , Taiwan , Korea , Hawaii and America. So why shouldnt it happen in Indonesia? I respect all MaA if they train hard, and all the effort put into a system. While I am shamed by The tales in SD i am not ashamed of the effort / time I have expressed in SD. When by body is well I will put my skills forms and sparring and application and mechanics against anyone. " not meant as a challenge" but as far as Mace is concerned I would not want to be around him , I may have to come out of fighting retirement. KC

[kwaichang]

This clip has some forms to watch. It is not Mace and was from a Tourney. KC
http://youtu.be/nRXqHBK1Eyw

[Kymus]

I can see by watching the youtube vids of mace why people think SD is a sucky system.

Dude, people have had that perception of SD since before Jake Mace started spamming YouTube with his cr@ppy videos. I was here before this thread got started and back then there was still that perception because - as has been discussed throughout the past decade-plus - the forms for 99% of SD practitioners are cr@p. I'm not even talking about not perfect. I'm talking, just plain bad, man.

A Tae Kwon do guy who cant do the SD system like it should be done.

How should it be done?

99% of the videos that have been posted have been universally agreed: they were terrible. When I say "universal" I'm including SD folks, too.

It seems to me that there is no standard as to how it should look. I mean, I haven't seen any SD practitioner here - current or former - say how it should look. It seems to be one big area of confusion.

The only SD forms I've seen that I thought were well really well done were from Shaolin Wookie. Of the Elder Masters I've seen, I guess if you don't base their performance on KF, then they did a good job. But basing it on Kung Fu? Ehhhh....

Also I have never heard the term Monkey Beak, in one form Shaolin Bae Yen Tang Lang Chien it has the word monkey hand to describe a hand position but that is it.

Seems like the Soards invented it; along with who-knows-what-else.

I am aware of the History and the non Chinese style emphasis placed in Sd, and feel it is like most systems , and has been altered by time . It happened in HK , Taiwan , Korea , Hawaii and America.

When you take Kung Fu and put it in Hong Kong or the Hakka region, it does look different, but it still follows Kung Fu principles. You can look at it and say "yeah, that looks like Kung Fu to me". I'm really interested in the Hakka arts like Southern Praying Mantis and Bak Mei. It looks real unique, but you can still tell it's Kung Fu.

So why shouldnt it happen in Indonesia?

Japanese Kung Fu = Karate
Japanese Shaolin = Shorinji
Indonesian Kung Fu = Kun Tao
Shaolin Do Kung Fu = Maybe Kun Tao and something else?

No one really knows what Shaolin Do is. It's not Karate, it's not Kung Fu, it may be Kun Tao, but we're not sure.

If Sin The just called it Chung Yen Indo-Chinese Martial Arts, stuck with the original curriculum, etc. then there'd probably be a lot less hoopla over SD.

[hskwarrior]

that made my stomach turn. why is the movement so HORRIBLE....i couldn't get passed 1:50 without cringing..........at 4:21 WHERE IS THEIR HORSE AT??????? did they leave it at home? 8:08 was so boring i fell asleep. so lifeless...BLAND. the double man short stick demo was like two little kids with tree limbs pretend sword fighting at 13:26. its so embarrassing to see so called "BLACK BELTS" doing a demo where they look like they're not even giving one ounce of effort.

the form at 20:28 is SOOOOOOOOOO derived from my lineages 5 animal form.i mean its PAINFULLY obvious (and gave me an upset stomach). GARBAGE! straight up disgusting!!!!!!

at 39:13 i got that guy beat hands down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RvA-_6PrjA


i couldn't watch any further......

[Kymus]

This clip has some forms to watch. It is not Mace and was from a Tourney. KC
http://youtu.be/nRXqHBK1Eyw

Ok, I didn't watch all of it, but here goes...

The first two forms were bad. There's no jing, no power. It looks like they're just waving their arms around.

If you can find it, watch Iron & Silk. That move may help put things in to perspective. It's a true story about when Mark Salzman went to China to teach english and then started learning Kung Fu from GM Pan Qing-Fu. It's out of print these days, but it's a fantastic film (Salzman wrote a book about it too, by the same name. Also good).

The sparring looked like a typical Karate sparring match. Of course, most KF schools look like sloppy kickboxers, so that's not a swipe against just SD. It's rare to see a school that fights like they train, but I have seen it.

The fan form was horrendous. I mean, not just how it was performed, but just the form itself was bad.

Here's a decent fan form from Choy Lay Fut. It's not done as fast and as powerful as it should be (likely due to space limitations, or something else).

Here's a good form that's done really bad. I know this form; I own the DVD . I know I don't do the form perfectly, but I know I can do it 100x better than this.

(Yo HSK: is the form in the video (DVD) heavily marked? Cause the way the person is doing it here, it looks a lot different.)

The form done after the fan form is very Shaolin Do. It's got speed and power, but it's so freakin' jerky! It may be alright if we compare it to something else other than Kung Fu, but by Kung Fu standards? No, bad. No flow, jerky movements.

[hskwarrior]

(Yo HSK: is the form in the video (DVD) heavily marked? Cause the way the chick is doing it here, it looks a lot different.)

In DFW's video, its marked. however there are no other forms remotely close to this one at all and because we know our form, even if one tries to disguise it, its very clear to US and we could EASILY pick apart EXACTLY what was ours and what what added or changed.

for me, its so crystal clear.

[Kymus]

In DFW's video, its marked. however there are no other forms remotely close to this one at all and because we know our form, even if one tries to disguise it, its very clear to US and we could EASILY pick apart EXACTLY what was ours and what what added or changed.

for me, its so crystal clear.

Does it differ greatly from the one I showed? It seem like the same form to me, but I'm noticing numerous differences.

[kwaichang]

I neversaid they were good I just said here are some forms. My forms I do in SD dont look like theirs, but I had 10 years 7star and Hung Jia prior to SD , anyway i am not arguing that I have seen better cause I have. They are just demo forms performed by new 1st degree BB mostly KC

[kwaichang]

Saw Iron and silk great movie. KC

[hskwarrior]