Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[hskwarrior]

Learning
Some seem to assume that a teacher is perfect and does not make mistakes. So lets say teacher A is Perfect and teaches B then B to C etc. Is the reproduction of the Material going to be the same ?
I say NO.
So what many have learned from Human teachers is already Flawed somewhat. Like wise if I have a DVD to refer to then that does not change. That is why in my opinion many forms while still taught by humans are going to change. Many also seem to think the next generation of student doesnt put their own twist on things so this intimate Knowledge is never the same for one as it is for another, even from the same teacher if any time has passed since the 1st teaching of it. KC

any rationalization of why its ok to learn from a book then teach what you think you know is UTTERLY disgusting. and everyone who doesn't see that should join shaolin do.

[kwaichang]

all who have quoted my statements have referred to learning from Books I have never said to Learn from books. KC

[SoCo KungFu]

You can learn anything from a book or video. Doctors learn from books. Pilots learn from videos.

If you think martial arts is so intellectually demanding that you can't learn from a book, then you're probably not running on all cylinders to begin with. This is fn simple shit.

Learning from a book/vid is bound by the same parameters as a class. Not all good fighters are good teachers. Not all good teachers are good fighters, but they know the game and can present material. The only addition to the equation to consider, is the instructor a good writer? I've seen some great books, written in wonderful detail. Nothing could be added that would be gained from class instruction. If the source is high quality, then you're set.

Beyond that, its up to you. A teacher can't will you to do shit right. That comes from you practicing. Same as if you're learning from a book. You know a good way to tell if you're doing it right? Did you get your ass beat in sparring?

The ONLY true advantage that a class has over learning from media, is a ready access to people that want to spar. But lets be real, most kung fu schools don't even have that.

[SoCo KungFu]

you will never find any olympic athlete that never had a coach. likewise you'll never find a world level contender in any sport event that did not have a coach.

Beyond some wrestling, Evan Tanner was largely self taught until he made it to UFC. It was then that competition was high enough he sought out a coach. I don't think anyone here is training for a heavyweight title fight...

[rett]

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is not only 1 path to full understanding. If all somebody did is hear about an armbar/trap/break (let alone see a video/book/etc.) and did the biomechanical research, practice,and application then what would stop them from finding good technique? Just because they didn't learn the technique from some guy named Master Wang that means it's crap?

The problem would be if he marketed it as coming from Master Wang. It's about being honest.

[Empty_Cup]

The problem would be if he marketed it as coming from Master Wang. It's about being honest.

I think everybody on this forum is agreeing you should be honest about the material origins.

[Judge Pen]

Learning to fight is a lot like a science lab. You can remember everything you need to know learning from a book or video. Anyone that says otherwise is just stuck in the past. Every doctor on the planet starts out by leaning from a book. I have a degree that says I can learn from a book (because most professors are just there to clear up things, or foot stomp and say this is the extra important part).

The issue is putting it into practice. Much like I won't trust a researcher that hasn't had time in a lab or in the field actually practicing their science, a fighter won't get anywhere by not fighting.

If you learn from a book or vid, and have someone who on a regular basis pushes you in sparring, etc, then you will be just fine. You'll probably be better off than the idiots doing forms all day in front of a teacher.

The only thing you need to check is, is the book/vid accurate? Does the person writin the book have a f'n clue? Most times, they don't. But neither do most kung fu teachers. And are you pressure testing? I've learned stuff from Eddie Bravo books and pulled on people when rolling. All it takes is a little common sense and practice.

No matter the source of your material, it is a question of efficacy. On the continuum from bad to best, instruction only from book vs. hands-on instruction from a quality and experienced teacher is best, but you are absolutely correct, putting it into practice is essential. And a self-taught person may be more talented or more motivated than another student with the better education. Chances are that the better instruction will make better students who can more easily put their training into practice, but there are always exceptions based on the individual. To say otherwise is to ignore human nature.

[Judge Pen]

And the issue with video came up for reviewing material you have already been taught. I've never learned anything that I try to apply on a regular basis only from a book or video.

[Kymus]

And the issue with video came up for reviewing material you have already been taught. I've never learned anything that I try to apply on a regular basis only from a book or video.

Stop talking sense JP. That's illegal in this thread

[Lucas]

Beyond some wrestling, Evan Tanner was largely self taught until he made it to UFC. It was then that competition was high enough he sought out a coach. I don't think anyone here is training for a heavyweight title fight...

I hear ya...bu you know, you actually reinforce my point perfectly with your example. to reach your full potential in something like martial arts, basketball, football, gymnastics etc. you need a coach(s).

Evan Tanner was state high school wrestling champ. he had a coach during his entire introduction to grappling/martial arts. starting as a sophmore and then winning texas state champs as a junior and senior. thats 3 school years of wrestling coaching.

I don't believe you are actualy advocating holding oneself back.

like i said, I agree, yes you can learn fine from a book or a video, but you will not reach your actual potential. if you disagree with me, thats fine. no one may be training for the world heavy weight in anything, but why does that mean we don't want to be the best that we can?

[Syn7]

I dunno. I did pretty well in wrestling and I had a great coach who was NOT hands on. He was there when you needed it, but you had to ask for it. He showed us the moves and explained the theory then sent us off to the mats to make us make it work for ourselves. He didn't interfere unless you were making horrific mistakes or you asked for it. Otherwise he just sat back and watched with his drink(yes, DRINK). We had a great team and we worked well together as a unit.

In gymnastics I had a very hands on coach. He was there every step of the way and was really big on safety. He did micromanage us to an extent, but we all benefited to some extent. We didn't have to ask, he was just there every step of the way. We did well. Put on shows, won local comps etc...

As a bboy, I was 100% self taught. I watched music videos and copied people I knew or saw live. I was too proud to ask for help, but my hunger was huge and I pushed through it till I got it right. All that time in was a real asset. I didn't take any classes till I started teaching, and even then it was to be a better teacher. Or to learn another style that I just wanted to get the fundamentals just to be able to say I can do it.

I can honestly say I find value in both. On the one hand, it's awesome to have a valued resource that can answer questions and offer guidance. On the other hand, if you are hungry, you will get through it and be better for the experience in more ways than you expect when you start.

I think it really comes down to your motivations, natural talent and desire to truly learn. If you want it bad enough and have some sort of affinity for it, you will excel if you put in the effort. Whether that is going step by step with an instructor, or pushing pause play pause play and the video, it's gonna happen for you.

All that being said, I have more respect for the self made. The ones who pushed through despite not having the advantages others have. If you have a world class teacher and don't become world class yourself, you're a joke. If you do it on your own, you're a god!

The one thing all these have in common is that we actually practiced our end goal. We didn't walk through steps to learn dance. We didn't do mock handspings to learn handsprings, we didn't envision a wrestling match to wrestle. We went out there, got sweaty and dirty and did what we came to do.

[SoCo KungFu]

I hear ya...bu you know, you actually reinforce my point perfectly with your example. to reach your full potential in something like martial arts, basketball, football, gymnastics etc. you need a coach(s).

Evan Tanner was state high school wrestling champ. he had a coach during his entire introduction to grappling/martial arts. starting as a sophmore and then winning texas state champs as a junior and senior. thats 3 school years of wrestling coaching.

I don't believe you are actualy advocating holding oneself back.

like i said, I agree, yes you can learn fine from a book or a video, but you will not reach your actual potential. if you disagree with me, thats fine. no one may be training for the world heavy weight in anything, but why does that mean we don't want to be the best that we can?

Because a coach/teacher is not the most important piece to the puzzle. They're just a source, like any other. The coach isn't helping you reach that potential any more than a book or vid. What is helping you get to that peak is having partners willing to kick your ass day in and day out. That's what pushes you to your peak. A coach facilitates this relationship. That's the greatest perk to a traditional school.

[CQCKenpo]

With regards to the learning from book/dvd/personal instruction issue, I believe that another factor is the different training backgrounds of individual students. How a student performs katas/forms will be affected by their prior training. For example, at my Kenpo school, prior to studying Kenpo one senior student had trained in Shotokan, one senior student (myself) had trained in TCMA (under Master Yang Jwing Ming and Master Victor Cheng), and a third had no prior training. We all received our kenpo training from the same instructor, but when you watch us perform the kenpo katas you can see evidence of our prior training in how we perform the katas. As a result, an outside observor might conclude that one of us "must have learned from a book or dvd."

Also, in some cases a book or dvd may be the only learning method available. Not everyone live in areas that are rich martial arts (LA, San Francisco, New York City) and moving is not an option. If you live in the Panhandle of Nebraska (for example), the only way to learn a particular system, such as Praying Mantis kung fu, may be through books or dvds. I do not believe criticizing these people for "not seeking out a personal instructor" is fair.

Finally, regarding individual instruction. Just because you have received personal, instruction does not mean that you have learned the form correctly. Let's say that your instructor teaches you the Yang Tai Chi short form in a particular way. Then you obtain Master Yang Jwing Ming's dvd (or the dvd by any other recognized master) and you learn that the way you were taught is different from that on the dvd. Who do you follow then? Your personal instructor or the dvd?

[CQCKenpo]

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

JP,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I hold black belts in Kenpo Karate, Kenpo Jujitsu (a hybrid system that includes standup throwing and ground grappling), and Modern Arnis. Due to moves for work-related issues, I have also received training in a variety of other systems, including Shaolin Long Fist, White Crane and Chin Na (under Master Yang Jwing Ming), Northern Long Fist (under Master Victor Cheng), as well as wing chun, shotokan, tae kwon do, and judo under various instructors.

In my early 40's, I started studying Kenpo and I found a system that focused on the areas of study that I personally enjoyed in Shaolindo. Back at UK in 1972, a group of mid-rank students (including myself) formed a "study group" in which we focused on practicing Shaolindo's 10 ippon kumite (yes they were still teaching the tenth ippon at the time), the 10 hand-to-hand or street techniques, and sparring. We also analyzed the short and long katas, pulling out individual moves and turning them into one-step sparring drills. (By the way, at that time there was no instruction in the applications of the kata movements. We had to find practical applications on our own).

Much of Kenpo karate material consists of similar one-on-one techniques and applications. That was what drew me to the system.

As to how Kenpo techniques compare to Shaolindo's techniques, well as you would expect, some I feel very confident in applying in a real situation - others just don't work for me, no matter how hard I train -- even though other people with different body builds can apply them quite well. The beginning Kenpo techniques resemble Shaolindo's ippon kumite as far as being very simple and basic, while others are similar to Shaolindo's self-defense techniques.

How I know that at least two of the Shaolindo Hand-to-Hand techniques work goes back to my graduate school days. Please note that this was the ONLY time that I have had to use any of my training and it was not a life-or-death issue, but it did give me confidence in two techniques. I had been invited to a party by someone in my department. I had just arrived, grabbed a soda, and started talking to a young woman standing next to me when a man walked up and accused me of "hitting on his girl." Without warning he threw a punch and reflexively I did Hand-to-Hand #2 (basically a judo osotogari). I don't think I will ever forget the look of shock on his face as he found himself lying flat on the ground. I then helped him to his feet -- not thinking this was anything serious -- and jokingly said, "try again if you like." I was shocked when he proceeded to throw a second punch (okay, I was young and stupid). This time I reflexively did Hand-to-Hand #1 where you block/parry, seize the arm and swing it downward, bringing his head down for a kick. In this case I was wearing soft soled tennis shoes, so I gently tapped him in the forehead and then pushed him away. He decided that he had had enough and walked away, cussing me out. I quickly left the party after that.

As I said, this was not a desperate, life and death struggle and I am sure a number of other contributors could come up with much better stories. But this is the only one I have. As I said, based on this one experience I felt that the training that I had received in Shaolindo did prepare me for the one time I needed it - and worked.

The flaming can now commence...

[CQCKenpo]

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

JP,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I hold black belts in Kenpo Karate, Kenpo Jujitsu (a hybrid system that includes standup throwing and ground grappling), and Modern Arnis. Due to moves for work-related issues, I have also received training in a variety of other systems, including Shaolin Long Fist, White Crane and Chin Na (under Master Yang Jwing Ming), Northern Long Fist (under Master Victor Cheng), as well as wing chun, shotokan, tae kwon do, and judo under various instructors.

In my early 40's, I started studying Kenpo and I found a system that focused on the areas of study that I personally enjoyed in Shaolindo. Back at UK in 1972, a group of mid-rank students (including myself) formed a "study group" in which we focused on practicing Shaolindo's 10 ippon kumite (yes they were still teaching the tenth ippon at the time), the 10 hand-to-hand or street techniques, and sparring. We also analyzed the short and long katas, pulling out individual moves and turning them into one-step sparring drills. (By the way, at that time there was no instruction in the applications of the kata movements. We had to find practical applications on our own).

Much of Kenpo karate material consists of similar one-on-one techniques and applications. That was what drew me to the system.

As to how Kenpo techniques compare to Shaolindo's techniques, well as you would expect, some I feel very confident in applying in a real situation - others just don't work for me, no matter how hard I train -- even though other people with different body builds can apply them quite well. The beginning Kenpo techniques resemble Shaolindo's ippon kumite as far as being very simple and basic, while others are similar to Shaolindo's self-defense techniques.

How I know that at least two of the Shaolindo Hand-to-Hand techniques work goes back to my graduate school days. Please note that this was the ONLY time that I have had to use any of my training and it was not a life-or-death issue, but it did give me confidence in two techniques. I had been invited to a party by someone in my department. I had just arrived, grabbed a soda, and started talking to a young woman standing next to me when a man walked up and accused me of "hitting on his girl." Without warning he threw a punch and reflexively I did Hand-to-Hand #2 (basically a judo osotogari). I don't think I will ever forget the look of shock on his face as he found himself lying flat on the ground. I then helped him to his feet -- not thinking this was anything serious -- and jokingly said, "try again if you like." I was shocked when he proceeded to throw a second punch (okay, I was young and stupid). This time I reflexively did Hand-to-Hand #1 where you block/parry, seize the arm and swing it downward, bringing his head down for a kick. In this case I was wearing soft soled tennis shoes, so I gently tapped him in the forehead and then pushed him away. He decided that he had had enough and walked away, cussing me out. I quickly left the party after that.

As I said, this was not a desperate, life and death struggle and I am sure a number of other contributors could come up with much better stories. But this is the only one I have. As I said, based on this one experience I felt that the training that I had received in Shaolindo did prepare me for the one time I needed it - and worked.

The flaming can now commence...