Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[godzillakungfu]

I have seen a couple, though they're usually very brief and Sin does more talking than demo. I don't do modern wushu. I do traditional PM and Longfist in Taiwan taught to my teacher by Wang Songting, the last martial Zhuangyuan of the Qing Dynasty and head instructor at the Republic of China's Qingdao Martial Institute.

Thank you for being honest.

And if what SD does bears no relation to modern wushu, then why does he and SD take trips to the Shaolin temple, which is just a tourist trap full of monks training in modern wushu?

If I told you my opinion I'd have to kill you. Joke.

This is a starwman argument. It has no bearing on the art or if it is CMA, JMA, IndoMA, made up, or an amalgam. You are now being silly. Do I need to list all the US school that make trips to Shaolin, that are respected, that don't do modern wushu? Remeber many of these schools have no real relation to Shaolin.

[Judge Pen]

That one wasn't too bad. A bit sluggish, but not bad. I've never studied Guan Dao, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like, but assuming he's a relative beginner it looks pretty good. If it's a Longfist-ish form I'd guess that those places where he takes several slow steps should be "xing-bu," a kind of controlled running.

Keep them coming and maybe I'll upgrade my opinion of SD from "total fraud that I wish would disappear" to "an okay activity for Americans with no access to more authentic CMA."

I wonder if Mr. Language expert (Tatooedmonk) can answer my question about the Chinese characters for the names of Ie Man-ching and Su Kong Tai-jin.

Unfortunatley, I'm not a relative beginner, but I acknowledge that I need more practice on demoing forms. The point wasn't my skill (which I know my strengths and weaknesses) but to demonstrate the form as it is clearly a CMA form and not JMA or whatever else people accuse SD of being. If you would take the time to read this thread from the beginning, you will see a lengthy discussion on the fine and not so fine points of my personal expression of this form.

[onyomi]

Okay, you can blame the students for not trying hard enough and the teachers for sending students on to the next form before they're ready, but there are two major questions to be answered:

1. Do the teachers, in fact, know what they're doing? Have they learned these forms and systems at more than a perfunctory level and can they really apply them? Do they have a full understanding of the systems including training techniques other than forms (drills, pair drills, standing exercises, qigong, sparring techiques, etc.)
2. If the answer to number one is yes (and I don't suspect it is), why don't the teachers slow down the pace of the forms and focus on other things, only moving students on to new forms (and styles) when they have a good handle on the old ones? Like I said, it takes years to get a handle on Praying Mantis alone. I'm sure the same is true of Xingyi, Bagua, 5 Animal, etc.

I can see that some SDers, like JPenn, do work hard and gain some decent ability, but my impression of the video is less that any lacking is because of JPenn's own effort, but rather that whoever instructed him was no expert in the use of the weapon in the first place.

So somebody post a video of someone doing SD that any SDer would agree is good SD. That's the reason I posted a video of my teacher and not myself (also I don't have a digital video camera). If it's me, I can always say, "well, I don't really represent the system cuz I've only been doing it a few years, plus I was tired at the time, plus I made mistakes here and here, plus, my teacher's WAY better, etc. etc."

By posting a video of my teacher, though I'm sure they aren't flawless, I'm posting an example of what I think good forms should look like. I have no issues with these forms. I think they are excellent performances. I'd say I've seen him go much faster, or that he's much more impressive in person, but despite those qualifications, I'm comfortable saying that his performances represent how our system should be done. If you have a criticism of said videos, then that can be said to be a legitimate criticism of our system, as opposed to just a criticism of that particular person's particular performance.

So where's the good SD? Where's Sin Te doing something other than just "fooling around" or chatting? Where's a higher-ranking SD teacher whom everyone in SD accepts as good at forms doing forms? This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system--by seeing people who represent it, not performances that even SDers themselves will criticize.

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

For further comparison, here's my shifu doing some traditional PM empty hand forms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj9ygvXt4x0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFRIkjRd_VY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSerD0uGj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVGCXHxiDHk

Are there any videos of SD Beng Bu or Meihua we can compare these to? Or any PM other than just "Tanglang-quan"?

[BoulderDawg]

So where's the good SD? Where's Sin Te doing something other than just "fooling around" or chatting? Where's a higher-ranking SD teacher whom everyone in SD accepts as good at forms doing forms? This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system--by seeing people who represent it, not performances that even SDers themselves will criticize.

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

You post links to your teacher. What about your videos?

You're so quick to present yourself as a martial arts expert and criticize the Shao-lin Do forms and participates I think we should see your videos. Show us the correct way to do something and don't refer to your teacher.

>>>>This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system<<<

I didn't know we were being judged.......didn't really care!

[onyomi]

You post links to your teacher. What about your videos?

You're so quick to present yourself as a martial arts expert and criticize the Shao-lin Do forms and participates I think we should see your videos. Show us the correct way to do something and don't refer to your teacher.

>>>>This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system<<<

I didn't know we were being judged.......didn't really care!

I just answered this question in the previous post. Also, I never said I was a master. That's the problem, in fact. Even someone who had been taking authentic Mantis for 6 months would say Sin's Mantis is all wrong.

You may not care what other people think about SD, but apparently JPenn and others do. The guan-dao video, for example, does SD more credit than I would have previously given it. If you want to improve peoples' impression of SD then post some good videos of it or maybe explain to me in detail SD's mantis training program and theories. If you really don't care what people think, then there's no need to participate in the discussion.

[godzillakungfu]

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Trust me I have said it before and I'll say it again, there are huge problems in Chinese Shao-Lin Center. Do, you honestly think these issues haven't been discussed?


If you have some proof, that you found in Indonesia, that proves SD/Chinese Shao-Lin center is crap then post it okay. I mean all this other crap you are spouting is ridiculous and proves no point.

[onyomi]

Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Trust me I have said it before and I'll say it again, there are huge problems in Chinese Shao-Lin Center. Do, you honestly think these issues haven't been discussed?


If you have some proof, that you found in Indonesia, that proves SD/Chinese Shao-Lin center is crap then post it okay. I mean all this other crap you are spouting is ridiculous and proves no point.

I don't have to prove SD is fake. You have to prove it's real. I can't prove there never was a Shaolin Grandmaster that looked like a dog. It's impossible to prove a negative. You have to prove the positive. No one can even give me the names of Ie and Su in Chinese characters for me to attempt to verify their existence outside SD sources.

All I'm saying is that the SD history is extremely suspect and that I and most other CMAists will need more proof to believe it. I'm also saying that 99% of what I've read and seen of SD on various schools' websites, etc. also lead me to believe that not only is the lineage fake, but the instruction is poor. If you want to convince me that SD instruction isn't always poor and that some SDers do know what they're doing, then I'd have to see more videos of SD that don't look like a joke.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion that SD seems fake and I wouldn't recommend anyone who asked me about it touch it with a ten foot pole, an opinion most non SD CMAists share. If you want to improve SD's image then the burden is on you to provide more evidence why it's good. Otherwise, the situation remains the same, i.e. no respect for SD outside of SD.

[godzillakungfu]

I don't have to prove SD is fake. You have to prove it's real. I can't prove there never was a Shaolin Grandmaster that looked like a dog. It's impossible to prove a negative. You have to prove the positive. No one can even give me the names of Ie and Su in Chinese characters for me to attempt to verify their existence outside SD sources.

All I'm saying is that the SD history is extremely suspect and that I and most other CMAists will need more proof to believe it. I'm also saying that 99% of what I've read and seen of SD on various schools' websites, etc. also lead me to believe that not only is the lineage fake, but the instruction is poor. If you want to convince me that SD instruction isn't always poor and that some SDers do know what they're doing, then I'd have to see more videos of SD that don't look like a joke.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion that SD seems fake and I wouldn't recommend anyone who asked me about it touch it with a ten foot pole, an opinion most non SD CMAists share. If you want to improve SD's image then the burden is on you to provide more evidence why it's good. Otherwise, the situation remains the same, i.e. no respect for SD outside of SD.

I don't have anything to prove. A vid was posted, people questioned but, said it has CMA flavor. Suddenly, when the thread becames remotely favorable about THE PERFORMANCE, the whole SD is fake/crap/unreal appears.

I'm asking if you found something that proves it isn't CMA show your cards. I know where I stand on SD/Chinese Shao-Lin Centers now I got you to state where you stand. That is all I wanted.

No what you are doing is turning a thread on A CMA form into a SD is fake thread. You are retreading the 1000+ post monster here by using vcd rips of your master.

I know what SD is and isn't and I have my opinions. I wouldn't recommend anyone with self defense aspirations to train with you.

See how that works?

[onyomi]

The thread was, "here are some SD videos that show how SD is authentic CMA." I disagreed that said videos represented authentic CMA, so I posted my opinion. There was a video linked to of Sin doing PM, which is the style I study. I also saw videos of jian and drunken style that I considered to be completely wrong. I commented that his PM was no good, citing specific reasons. Other people started arguing that my PM must be contemporary Wushu and not combat-applicable because it's not as rigid as Sin's, so I posted videos to show what I think authentic PM, jian and dao are supposed to be like. I was not trying to hijack the thread into another "is Shaolin-do for real," but neither was I going to just say nothing when I saw a style I do so poorly represented. I used the videos not to say, "look, SD sucks because none of the videos are as good as mine." I was saying, "look, that's not how you use the jian or do Praying Mantis--here's what it's supposed to be like."

Anyway, sorry I got off an a tangent. I'll limit any further comments I make in this thread to the specific performances and videos posted.

[tattooedmonk]

The thread was, "here are some SD videos that show how SD is authentic CMA." I disagreed that said videos represented authentic CMA, so I posted my opinion. There was a video linked to of Sin doing PM, which is the style I study. I also saw videos of jian and drunken style that I knew to be nonsense from my own study of the same. I commented that his PM was no good, citing specific reasons. Other people started arguing that my PM must be contemporary Wushu and not combat-applicable because it's not as rigid as Sin's, so I posted videos to show what I think authentic PM, jian and dao are supposed to be like. I was not trying to hijack the thread into another "is Shaolin-do for real," but neither was I going to just say nothing when I saw a style I do so poorly represented. I used the videos not to say, "look, SD sucks because none of the videos are as good as mine." I was saying, "look, that's not how you use the jian or do Praying Mantis--here's what it's supposed to be like."

Anyway, I'll limit any further comments I make in this thread to the specific performances and videos posted.

The forms are authentic and chinese in origin..it is just the practitioners show no signs of this..(Refering to the videos posted on the csc website) ..another reason that you can not see it is because the Gi throws you and many people off...it is a psychological thing ....but I will not get into that now..

who are you to judge whether someones PM is any good? you said yourself that you are no master..... you have not shown us "your" version of what " real pm" is or looks like...you have posted youtube videos of master leong(sp?)...which is highly suspect.....yes ...he does great forms ...and in my opinion has the proper amount of everything that is needed...

Now here is one that makes me laugh.....you have posted what "YOU THINK " is real praying mantis .....here is the problem .....you did not think... at least not very much..you have to use facts here...which can be followed by your opinion....as long as it is based on the facts..... not your opinions based on nothing of any substantial or factual basis.....


Another one of your comments was.... that anyone with at least 6 months of training in praying mantis could see that he was doing it wrong...How is that possible?? did you think that one through before you posted it??...that is just plain stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject...

Can you prove that Master Leong is your master?? where is his lineage from? can you provide documented proof of it and his connection to that lineage??until you can... your words mean nothing to me and as far as I am concerned...a waste of space...

and by the way....Please post your mantis forms with you perfoming them....this is another way to prove that you know anything about the subject.....

[Radhnoti]

Su Kong Tai Djin

(Sigung) = Grandmaster

Sigung....SuKong....Sigung...SuKong....Chinese to English....sigung becomes Su Kong...

I think everytime someone says Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin they're saying grandmaster twice.

GM Sin never says he met the first SD grandmaster, just that his teacher told him stories about him.
My personal opinion is that GM Tai Djin had not nearly so much to do with shaolin-do as GM Ie.

[onyomi]

The forms are authentic and chinese in origin..it is just the practitioners show no signs of this..(Refering to the videos posted on the csc website) ..another reason that you can not see it is because the Gi throws you and many people off...it is a psychological thing ....but I will not get into that now..

who are you to judge whether someones PM is any good? you said yourself that you are no master..... you have not shown us "your" version of what " real pm" is or looks like...you have posted youtube videos of master leong(sp?)...which is highly suspect.....yes ...he does great forms ...and in my opinion has the proper amount of everything that is needed...

Now here is one that makes me laugh.....you have posted what "YOU THINK " is real praying mantis .....here is the problem .....you did not think... at least not very much..you have to use facts here...which can be followed by your opinion....as long as it is based on the facts..... not your opinions based on nothing of any substantial or factual basis.....


Another one of your comments was.... that anyone with at least 6 months of training in praying mantis could see that he was doing it wrong...How is that possible?? did you think that one through before you posted it??...that is just plain stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject...

Can you prove that Master Leong is your master?? where is his lineage from? can you provide documented proof of it and his connection to that lineage??until you can... your words mean nothing to me and as far as I am concerned...a waste of space...

and by the way....Please post your mantis forms with you perfoming them....this is another way to prove that you know anything about the subject.....

My teacher's name is Zhou. Kung-fu Loung is the name of his school. Even if I posted a video of myself doing a form you might say, "how do we know that's really you?" I get my info. about PM from him and he got his from a well-established master, Wang Songting.

I said someone with only six months of PM training would see something wrong with Sin's mantis because that's not how the Mantis hand is used, according to the way I've been taught. If you say "yes it is," then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[tattooedmonk]

Su Kong Tai Djin

(Sigung) = Grandmaster

Sigung....SuKong....Sigung...SuKong....Chinese to English....sigung becomes Su Kong...

I think everytime someone says Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin they're saying grandmaster twice.

GM Sin never says he met the first SD grandmaster, just that his teacher told him stories about him.
My personal opinion is that GM Tai Djin had not nearly so much to do with shaolin-do as GM Ie.

I believe that the Su kong is in reference to Wu Kong the monkey king ( different dialect) Tai is great or grand as far the Djin I believe that is a made up name by the monks that found him so I would say that it is the Great Monkey King Djin or Djin the Great MonkeyKing...I maybe wrong.... Ie Chang Ming... Iron Palm Ming

[tattooedmonk]

My teacher's name is Zhou. Kung-fu Loung is the name of his school. Even if I posted a video of myself doing a form you might say, "how do we know that's really you?" I get my info. about PM from him and he got his from a well-established master, Wang Songting.

I said someone with only six months of PM training would see something wrong with Sin's mantis because that's not how the Mantis hand is used, according to the way I've been taught. If you say "yes it is," then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the correction....

You have not posted any documented proof ...are we suppose to just take your word for it?

and you are right we would have no way of knowing if it is you or not.



I am still curious as to how someone with only 6 months of training can come to any conclusions about this topic or ,any other, regarding the martial arts ??

according to what YOU have been taught?? come on....

Someone has to exhaust all there efforts, research from multiple sources, and study with different teachers/masters to come up with a definative conclusion that Master Sin is doing his mantis fingers right or wrong good or bad...

Have you done that? has anyone else here done that??...NO!!

these things are still a matter of perception....stay tuned folks..I am all over this... like white on rice....

[kwaichang]

Hey Guys, I viewed your clips and noticed many similarities of the Bong Bu Chien on the tape and the one I was taught in SD. Interestingly enough the movements that were in your teachers form was included in the Mantis I trained in the 1st 10 years earlier in my life of martial training. I demonstrated this form of the SD to my wife who is uneducated in the CMA or any martial art and even she could see the similarities of the two. I do not have a clip or I would post it . With permission of course,......however it is similar there are a few places where we do sweeps and there is switching of the foot work in the U Tube one. SD does a few punches at the end and the other guy does a traping type motion the ending is very similar. Boy I wish I was pretty with forms I would put one on here KC