Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[norther practitioner]

We're just messing around man, no offense to you yutyeesam. But I think your idea is best.

[Brad]

There's nothing wrong with an argument as long as it stays in this thread. Gene should just make this the new official "Shaolin-Do" thread, and delete any new SD threads that pop up.

[GeneChing]

... oh you young'ens don't know your roots. Hendrix. sheesh. sillumkid, you owe me a beer for that one.

I agree with the bulk of you, no need to delete the thread. Everyone's been very respectful so far - I think all the veterans of this forum knows where this one leads, and we don't really care to waste much more energy on it.

[Radhnoti]

Well, I'd be glad to let this one slide down the page into nothingness. No more posts on this thread would be GREAT.


I'm only posting this since it's on top right now, and it can't get MORE on top.

[Shaolindynasty]

I miss the days when I found a good shaolin do fight interesting. If you seriously want to know more about shaolin do pm willow sword, he has an interesting new perspective on it considering his recent experiences brought about from a challenge match caused by this forum. I am sure he doesn't want to post in this thread though.

[GeneChing]

And we worked some of the bugs out of the search engine, but it's still far from perfect. At least you can search more than 3 letters now. All good things in all good time.

You'll find the big Shaolin Do challenge thing we had back around page 13 (note: this page number will change as we move forward in time - it was page 13 on this date.) You'll find a lot of old Shaolin Do threads by just going back into those archives and reading the titles.

Have fun

[TenTigers]

Gene,
I remember being in a record store (this alone dates me-my kids say, "what are records?") and this girl was looking at Beatle Albums because "That's the band Paul McCartney used to play in"or people who like Hendrix because he sounds like Robin Trower, or Stevie Ray Vaughn. AAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!

[diego]

Genes just like GDMF WHAT!!!, I love my forum

[diego]

TenTigers learn how to dj, and force your kids to like rap, eventually they will study its roots, soon they will start scratching your old records Not a bad idea eh!?.

[GeneChing]

I'm with you brother. So few pop stars can actually play music anymore. It's a sorry state of affairs and reflects poorly on our culture.

[mortal]

What was the outcome of willow swords challenge match?

[The Willow Sword]

i was defeated. and in my defeat i gained my greatest victory.
the posts are probably erased now. i do not wish to re-hash the subject. suffice it to say " sometimes when you win you lose and sometimes when you lose you win. my case is the latter.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[mortal]

The willow sword

I like your posts. Your honest. I really respect and appreciate that. I can tell your a kung fu nut like me. I also respect the fact that you took the time to follow it through.
What did you change about the way you train? Are you still confident in your style or did you seek outside instruction? Not trying to rehash.

Anthony

[The Willow Sword]

i focus mainly on hsing i now. i do the pakua routines such as the stepping and other things, and the buddha fist form that i learned at SD is now my taichi form. i have gone independant and train when i can. when i spar its full on contact. and i still meditate and live my life.
many respects, The Willow Sword

[Okami]

I have been following this and other related posts for a little while and I was prompted to do some research.
I have not finished yet, but I may have found some hope for Shaolin Do practicioners out there.

First of all I want to say that I have no side on any issues about Shaolin do. I have my own opinions about SD, but my research is a firm attempt to remain objective and seek the truth.

The dates of the SD grandmasters fit into historical accounts of events during the times that they lived. This does not mean that they existed, just that their existence was possible.

Guang Xu (Manchu) was emperor of China from about 1890 until the Boxer Rebellion. Some historians claim that the Fukien temple was destroyed completely just before the Boxer Rebellion. This would place Su Kong (the hairy one) at the right time and the right age to have been at the temple and to have escaped into the mountains. The best report I can find is that about 30 or so inhabitants of the temple excaped, most are unnamed.

The next grandmaster who killed 11 soldiers also fits into history. Around 1928 when he was supposed to have been awarded this title, China was not under a unified rule. The camp of a warlord that he wandered into could have existed. Also, it is reported by historians that many practitioners of kung fu traveled south to maintain their safety. The move to Indonesia fits into this.

Sin The is a real person. He attended the University of KY with the father of a friend of mine. He is Chinese (my friend's father is Chinese). My friend's father knew Sin and I asked him some questions about him. He said that Sin was a good engineering student and lived on the same floor of the dorm with him. He said that Sin's brother was really a better martial artist than Sin. But, Sin is older and that family tradition thing takes presidence. He also said that Sin called his martial art Karate then. This would have been in the late 60's to early 70's.

There are videos of SD practitioners performing pieces of kata (sorry about the Japanese word here) on the internet. I think it is the site for the Atlanta school, but I am not sure. You can see what they look like there.

My current conclusion, which is my no means final, is that it is possible that SD is legit. Whether or not it is probable that SD is legit is still up for questioning.

I am from KY and throughout my Martial Arts career I have been exposed to Shaolin Do. I am not a student in this style, but I have trained with some SD people and I have found them to be good martial artists and willing to share what they know. I know more than a handful of katas from the style and I enjoy practicing them. Among my group of practice partners along with my instructor we have found many good combat applilcations of techniques within these forms.

I know one of the major objections to SD is the uniform. I have a common sense theory behind this. In the late 60's when Sin started teaching in KY there was little or no knowledge of any martial arts at all. Everything was Karate regardless of where it came from or what it looked like. This is to include Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Judo, or any Asian martial art. The uniforms were a familiar thing to see, so he used them to attract students. He kept them because "if it works, don't fix it."

Several of Sin's students who are now instructors have changed to Chinese uniforms and have adopted forms and techniques from other Chinese styles. Most of these schools call themselves Shaolin-Ryu. Ryu being the Japanese word for branch.

On a side note, Sin's brother operates schools in KY also.
I have noticed a difference between students of Sin and his brother. Their katas (please excuse my use of this Japanese word, it is the term we use for all types of sets of movements in my school) are performed differently. Sin's students are slower and seem more Karate-like. Hiang's students perform with more fluid motion and particularly in animal forms, seem more like the animal they imitate. Personal style I guess.

As far as historical accuracy, either the people fit into the time periods because they were actually there, or somebody did their homework before writing their biographies.

So much for objective, now for my opinion.
I think SD looks so much like Karate because they have the same roots. And the roots aren't that deep. Karate practitioners who make up the lineage of the four main Okinawan styles (Shotokan, Shinto-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and Gojo-Ryu) traveled to the area of China where the Fukien Temple was located. Regardless of the grandmaster's lineage being legit, SD most likely came from southeastern China as did the roots of Karate. Tode Sakagawa who by most accounts is the first major practitioner of Karate in Okinawa, lived around the time that the Fukien Temple was supposed to have been destroyed. It is possible that he learned martial arts from the same people as Sin's martial ancestors learned from. Of course the martial arts of both lines evolved independently due to the envoronment, politics, and the individual practitioner's physical capabilities and motivations. But they are not seperated by much time, so the styles still share much similiar material.

From what I have seen of SD I believe it to be an effective combat martial art. Just as effective as Shotokan, Jujutsu, or Wing Chun. Of course it has its weaknesses, but all styles lack somewhere if we are persistent enough to look for them. If someone is training to be combat effective I think SD is a good system to utilize in a cross-training program. I have found through my own experience that the instructors are willing to help in this cross-training endeavor. When I went to the Shaolin-Ryu club at UK while I was in college, they let me keep my rank from my own style and allowed me to train with students at all levels. I had a good time with these guys. Their class sessions were physical and I got some good exercise from both kata and sparring. I learned some things fighting with them, and I like to think I taught them something too.

Below the black belt level, SD lacks in internal training. Not that this is a bad thing. Some styles follow the theory that the body must be trained first. Seems SD is one of these. Opinions vary as to which to train first or to train concurrently.

Coming from an eccletic martial arts style, the history of styles interests me, but does not motivate me. We are not concerned with the purity of a style or its lineage. In the true American melting pot heritage, we will try anything and see if we can make it work. SD has some techniques that work.

Train for fun. If it is not fun anymore it is time to look for something new.