Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

Well I did not see the Chen from SD that you guys speak of however I did view the others posted and was not impressed except by the flow and low stances. I have viewed GMT doing "our" SD Chen,m the whole thing, and I will tell you it is much more impressive to view than those on the Tube thing. His Chen is amazing to say the least. KC

[B-Rad]

From my untrained eye, the clip you posted, while lovely to watch also contained a few things that, in my understanding (delusional as it is), were no-no's. Over extension of the body and knee past the toes, unsettled weight distribution in a couple of places, pulling a few of the explosive punches short......to name a few.

So, if you have time, please elaborate on your position.

In Yang style forward stance the knee going past the toes would be a big no no because the wieght distribution (they use a straight forward stance quite often), but to me it looked like when he did enter a longer forward stance, his knees were aligned pretty well. In the few stances where the knee did go a bit past the toes it seemed to me were in postures where doing that a little wouldn't be too big a deal. It was still very seldom that he did such a thing, and clearly wasn't any kind of trained habitual problem. Most of his stance work is really excellent. Another thing I really liked about his form was his feet! One common mistake amoung Chen stylists I've seen at competition is unstable feet. Lots of Chen stylists focus so much on all the fancy stuff going on up top and end up with unstable footwork. Lots of sliding around of the feet... this guy didn't seem to have much, if any, of that. Every step was solid and purposful. I'm not sure what you mean about "pulling" the punches... they looked pretty well extended to me, though not locked (which WOULD be a no no in taiji quan).

[The Willow Sword]

nope, did not dream it up. besides, lohan incorporates the springy leg stepping or TAN TUI. but this is from Northern Shaolin, NOT SD. TWS

[MasterKiller]

IMO people on this board have a serious pre-existing bias against anything SD. Therefore, we could post the best vid of the best SD performance ever seen, and it would be shredded because it was SD.

I don't think this is necessarily true. BM2 or GT posted an old video of a chain whip demo that everyone seemed to like.

[Judge Pen]

I think people would probably be a bit more critical of something knowing it was SD on the front end. There are exceptions to that and, to be very fair, most of what has been posted of SD hasn't been very good. There are a few exceptions (like the chain-whip video).

[Mas Judt]

As a general critic of SD, I would agree with Judge Pen's statement. Of course there is an inherent bias - built out of the perception of deceit associated with the system.

[BlueTravesty]

Well I did not see the Chen from SD that you guys speak of however I did view the others posted and was not impressed except by the flow and low stances. I have viewed GMT doing "our" SD Chen,m the whole thing, and I will tell you it is much more impressive to view than those on the Tube thing. His Chen is amazing to say the least. KC

I'm not a practitioner of Chen Taiji, but I hope to someday study this style, and try to collect all the info I can on it, so please take this with as many or as few grains of salt as you feel necessary

Chen Xiaowang IS the acknowledged standard bearer of Chen Taiji, so you'll have to forgive some of us if we feel that's a tall order to fill. I think the heir-apparent from the acutal Chen Family Village is Chen Xiaoxing, whose stuff doesn't look TOO different than Chen Xiaowang's (structure and body-wise, since everyone has their own unique imprint on the art they practice.) I can give you the benefit of the doubt regarding Sin The' but you've gotta understand that most of us here regard Chen Xiaowang as the real thing.

Just curious though, since Chen Taiji (and most likely ALL Taiji) came from the Chen Family Village, and not from Shaolin Temple, where did Ie Chang Ming get his Chen form? Perhaps he studied under a monk from, or who learned in the Chen Family village and incorporated it into his Shaolin?

[Mas Judt]

Okay, I watched the 'chen taiji' clip again. I'm rushed (still) so I can't give you a complete detailed break down.

I'm not sure that my analysis will even be understood, based upon the comments I've seen here. For instance, I am confident Kwaichang would not know what constitutes Taiji skills if they bit him on the a$$.

Here are the most obvious points:

1.) It isn't Taiji (okay, okay)
2.) The movement is not drawn from the Gua
3.) There is no silk reeling
4.) The movements are not connected
5.) From the posture, it is obvious that there is no Peng, and certainly no store and release.

It looks like a karate guy who took some dance lessons and is imitating Chen taiji.

If you think I am biased, ask the guy to do it again in sweats, put it on youtube, and post on the Neijia sites and see what happens.

The bagua was similarly aweful.

[brucereiter]

Okay, I watched the 'chen taiji' clip again. I'm rushed (still) so I can't give you a complete detailed break down.

I'm not sure that my analysis will even be understood, based upon the comments I've seen here. For instance, I am confident Kwaichang would not know what constitutes Taiji skills if they bit him on the a$$.

Here are the most obvious points:

1.) It isn't Taiji (okay, okay)
2.) The movement is not drawn from the Gua
3.) There is no silk reeling
4.) The movements are not connected
5.) From the posture, it is obvious that there is no Peng, and certainly no store and release.

http://energyarts.com/hires/taichi/index.html click on tai chi styles then on chen tai chi.

can you say what you think about this clip of xin jia?

[godzillakungfu]

Oh boy.....

[Mas Judt]

I'm not going to discuss the relative nature of BK's practice, however, what he is doing is clearly recognizable as taiji, whereas the SD clip is not.

In the SD clip, it not even a matter of interpreting taiji principles - it's a complete absence of them.

Guys, guys, you can keep pointing at your horse meat and saying 'it's Angus beef!" But until you have tasted the Angus Beef, you won't understand the difference.

Please post these questions on EmptyFlower. The guys there will love to chat about this.

[Golden Tiger]

Okay, I watched the 'chen taiji' clip again. I'm rushed (still) so I can't give you a complete detailed break down.


Here are the most obvious points:

1.) It isn't Taiji (okay, okay)
2.) The movement is not drawn from the Gua
3.) There is no silk reeling
4.) The movements are not connected
5.) From the posture, it is obvious that there is no Peng, and certainly no store and release.

It looks like a karate guy who took some dance lessons and is imitating Chen taiji.

If you think I am biased, ask the guy to do it again in sweats, put it on youtube, and post on the Neijia sites and see what happens.

The bagua was similarly aweful.

First, I would like to thank you and B-rad for the analysis of the form. At least now I have an idea about what you are basing the "suck factor" on.

Due to technical difficulties, I can't view the clips on the CSC site to know exactly what demo you are refering to. I assume MS2's comments were based on it as opposed to what I originally asked, but that is fine now.

I will take it that those things you mentioned where what was missing from the SD form.

Thanks again. I will try to comment further when I can watch them for myself.

Oh, MS2, use all the big words you want to with me, if I don't know them, I will consult google...

[Mas Judt]

GT - google Mike Sigman for a very clear explanation of what I am discussing. The skills get much deeper than the items I mentioned, however without these, the others are impossible.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh boy.....

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

First off I would like to say that after 15years in SD /CSC that is the worst demo I have seen!!

90% of it was crap!! the forms are great and real but it is the practitioners that make it look like $h!T!

I will say that JK did look alittle stiff doing Chen . but I do give him a great deal of credit ..he is the only instructor out of all the csc s to remain considering all the bs that has gone on.

He does his best to represent the art. plus I think that if he was wearing something other than a GI most people would not be as critical( the gi thing sure does a number on peoples perception)

JC & MS's version of 8 animal Bagua Zhang was so external and lacked any fluidity what so ever ....complete crap!!!

TW the guy that did the Twin straight sword form had no clue as to how to use the weapons it made me laugh out loud

..the guy that did the double daggers...please...the fists of hua ...another joke..... mulan fans...come on!!

I can go on and on but I will not.

This is what happens when everyone is more concerned with the quantity of the forms and not the quality.

energy is weak when it is dipersed over a large area ...that same energy is strong when it is concentrated in a small area ..

this is so sad!!

HAHAHA!!

I can not understand why anyone would put this on their web site to represent the art when it clearly is a misrepresentation of the art..

once again devotion to the art is my first and foremost priority and to GMT second

this is not a post to disrespect him or the art or the great practictioners of the art ..it is just to let those who have no clue that this demo is complete crap and does not reflect SD on the whole!!

oh by the way the the use of the words "color" and "flavor" are used by DS & SS which says a great deal about the person who used them in their post!!