Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat. I hate when someone pulls an explanation out of their @ss with a "maybe it was used like this when people used to train harder" excuse. Some movements have no martial value. Anyone who knows the history of CMA knows a lot of forms have acrobatics that were designed for shock and awe and not for practicality.

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

[humbleman]

I'm not interested in ****ing contests. I could say that the filipino style I have been studying is the most realistic combatic style I have ever studied, and I do believe that, but that would not contribute to this discussion. There's always another. Training hour discussion aside, I am interested in discussing SD. The Judge had an excellent post about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss. As I said, SD did very good things for me, but I now have questions about the learn forms from every style approach. I recently watched a video of forms I did, and while they may have been acceptable for belt testing, from what I know of real weapons usage, I learned nothing. It's difficult for me because SD training was such a positive in my life.

Apparently you never encountered Sensei Brian. Brian was Mantis personified. He even looked-er-I always hated when he went into a Mantis stance when we were sparring, because I knew I was in for pain the likes of which I would never encounter in any street situation. Being run through a meat grinder would hurt a lot less than being taken apart methodically and mercilessly by that man. Which probably explains why he learned the inner secrets of S.D. mantis. When not in combat, you couldn't find a man with a more gentle disposition and big heart. I'm not saying your experience with S.D. mantis isn't true, I'm sure it is. What I am saying is that there are many S.D. Masters and Senseis, and you or I haven't met all of them to see what they have to offer, and never possibly could. That's probably why it's called "Secrets of the Temple." The temple is a living thing. I wish you well.

[humbleman]

Then one day a ship wrecked and they didnt have any food so Capt Bly had to save them from themselves and break coconuts so they could eat and not starve. None of the passangers could, so they asked Capt Bly to teach them because they knew deep down that if they didnt learn they would die and they had to dedicate themselves to do it so as not to die . But those who did not dedicate them selves did die. KC

whispered rumors that one night, while meditating underneath a coconut tree for 49 days and nights on the true essence of Coconut Tao, a Coconut fell from the tree and split in a perfect half on Captain Blys head. But this was no ordinary Coconut. It was the Coconut of immortality. Bly immediately pulled out a jumbo crayola fuschia colored crayon that he kept stored in a watertight compartment and wrote down the inner teachings of Coconut Tao, which he hid inside the Coconut halves, and then buried. Years later, someone finally bothered to go ashore on Clench and dug up the mystic Coconut. He later sailed to Berdoo, CA. and founded the sect of Igotmynskruyujustsu-hukanuduitu-ryu. There, if you ask right, you can see the secret ritual where the monks of Igotmynskruyujutsu-hukanuduitu-ryu hold Coconut halves at their Tantien and walk in circles chanting. As with everything in the style, the Coconut halves have a practical funtion. They are worn in place of plastic cups during sparring, the only known defense against the terrible Coconut busting power of Coconut-Tao. This is known in the system as humor-ha-ha.

[humbleman]

Well OK Pick then you can hire a General Surgeon to do your Brain Surgery and let the Neuro Surgeons just watch as they scramble your brain to mush. I never said I did not cross train " in the Past" but I feel to do something as well as possible takes total dedication. I tell ya what why dont you grapple for a year or two then try kicking against a good Tae Kwon Do guy your kicks will be ****zen. Wake up and do what you want. I dont care I was there when I was young too. KC

Cats foot, iron claw, neuro surgeouns scream for more/ at paranoias poison door/ 21st century schizoid mannnnnn!!!! -king crimson

[brucereiter]

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

some of the moves are not always what they seem to be ... take a butterfly kick for example. i was walking towards a 4' tall barricade at work with my hands full of equipment. i used a butterfly kick to jump over the barricade. this has many self defense uses as you could imagine ... not just to kick someone ...

my 2 cents ...

i think it is up to the student to grasp the essence of which ever art. i have trained side by side with the same people for years had the same instruction as the rest of them but for example my understanding of tai chi chuan might be a little deeper than some of my peers, why??? we had the same oppritunity we have put in the same amount of time ... ???

[Judge Pen]

BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. KC

Absolutely. If you keep training and growing and improving, then more techniqes and applications become possible for you.

[Golden Tiger]

You could fault me for being stupid enough to believe the publisher when they called their books "comprehensive," but it's not my fault that the books are unusable.

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight.

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway )

Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

Again, reluctently, I have to agree with MK.

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

[MasterKiller]

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway )

W.E.B. DuBois called them "the talented tenth." Only 10% of people who ever enroll in college graduate in 4 years. I would say that 10% number applies to people in a lot of fields, including martial arts.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

I concur.

[humbleman]

We each seek our own path I for one do not need to cross train. From the Tiger I will learn Tenacity and Power, The Snake suppleness and rythmic endurance, The Mantis patience, from The Dragon to ride the wind. and with all this why do I want to do something that will not help me to achieve my goal. Oh yeah and it is not the system it is the individual doing the system, if that person does not have the right attitude then it doesnt matter what syle or styles you do it wont help. Also TWS It is the most comprehensive system I have ever seen I want for nothing I am tested with strength , flexibility, endurance and application. Also ,BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. Find your own path only you can follow and to H**l with everyone else. If all of you guys are so good that you dont want to be associated with a style then start your own see how easy it is. KC

well spoken. Bravo!

[ninthdrunk]

Just my two cents:

I have had really good experience with specialization. It's all about how much you put into it, I guess. Not just how much you put in physically, but mentally. In fact, I would argue that might be even more important. Master Schaefer is there to answer any questions I have, and more often than not, he can make me realize that I've actually been keeping myself pinned down, so to speak, with how I've been looking at the problem. To me, that's what a teacher is for. Not to spoon answers into my mouth, but to show me how to overcome stumbling blocks that I've come up against. I WANT my path to mastery to be my own, not someone else's.

As to seeking out people who are specialists in SD, I see two different solutions. One is tied directly to my first point: explore the problem yourself. In a sense, become the specialist. I've found that if you go looking for someone to take you from ground zero all the way to mastery, it doesn't happen. I think it works better if you take yourself as far as you can on your own (with guidance here and there along the way, of course, as mentioned above). Second, instead of trying to find someone who has all the answers, find someone else who is in the same boat as yourself, and start asking questions together. I've come away from conversations with people in my same position with some really good answers. Were they the right answers? Sometimes...the point is that we tackled it together and made some progress.

I know for a fact that there are people in the Austin school that I could turn to for specialized training. Are they a master of certain arts? Not quite, but are they better than I am? Sure thing. They have skills that I want, and if I needed to, I could go and ask them how they got where they are. Sifu Ryon for Crane, Jason for tai chi, Sifu Sean for Hsing ie, Master Schaefer for bird, Sifu Andy for drunken. I know they have put in the time. It's evident in their training and sparring. They're there if I wanted to ask some questions.

So, sure we might benefit the most from travelling across the country to the different Masters of certain aspects of SD, but there are also resources close to home. Granted, Texas has a lot of students, so the odds are in our favor, and other locations might not be that lucky. Well, why not try and become the specialist yourself. Or take the few opportunities that you get seriously. Every time I've stopped a Master at a tournament for a few questions, they have responded very positively. Know what you want to ask in advance, and try to make it something more in depth than, "how do you specialize in mantis?" or whatever.

[Learn]

Many thoughts expressed here. Again, I have to express an appreciation for Judge Pen's civil discourse, and also for his passion for SD, because it meant so much to me. I also understand Willow Sword's passion on the subject. The poster who talked of the SD teacher who was so good in Mantis, I apologize for not remembering your name, but I trained with a number of senior instructors, and none of them conveyed the key principles and strategy of northern mantis. I did learn a mantis form in SD, and frankly, I am somewhat embarassed because it seems to me to be a shallow copycat without deeper understanding of what mantis is all about. I paid for studies in Tai Ji, in Ba Gua. I did enjoy it. None of my teachers ever told me there was so much more to learn about those styles. I learned a sequence of movements, no principles, no applications, no theory. Subsequent study has shown me that what I learned what just a seminar style introduction. I have no problem with that in and of itself, but that is not what I was told.

I recall learning certain sparring techniques. In retrospect, given additional experience, they were definitely karate based. Not cma.

Really, this is a difficult thing for me, because my studies with SD made me so many friend and changed my life. But I also have some bitterness, because my subsequent training has introduced me to much more realistic approaches to fighting. I do have a feeling that I was duped. I definitely got something, just not what I was sold.

I suppose it depends on our expectations. SD can deliver wonderful things. But you have to match it up to what you want.

As far as weapons, I love cma weapons, but I love where I'm at now much more. Serious, real world knife fighting is very challenging, but there is pleasure in studying the jian.

[The Willow Sword]

i repsect what Ninthdrunk has to say but i also think that it is easy for an instructor who doesnt have the proper knowledge of a form(s) to say "go figure it out for yourself" and make this mystical statement that the "answers will come to you". to me this is more indicitive of hollywood kung fu MOVIES rather than a practical approach to learning forms and their subsequent applications.
you dont just learn a form and explore a couple of applications within and then move on to the next form. have you mastered that form when you do this? i say absolutely not. The statement of " learning the applications yourself" is the excuse i had been given all throughout my time at SD. yeah i would be taught a couple of "possibilities" then left to my own. Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am. But you definately feel like you are cheating yourself and cheating others buy trying to pull applications out of your butt and then teaching them to others when you are not sure if what you are doing is the correct way(and yes there are many combinations of applic. contained within forms). joe's focus in his teaching was always about the FORM rather than the applications of the form, with only minimal % of teaching applications(but that was during the time i was there). I mean hey thats why sd has the sparring techniques and the age old true shaolin ippon kumite techniques. It seems as though you are distracted with those and focus on using those in your fighting and in tournaments. ive only seen a Few people at Sd during my time there actually try to emulate and fight like the forms taught to them. never a mantis or a tiger or a bird way of fighting but more so the typical kiddie karate way.
The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable) . There was NEVER a form or aspect of a form that he taught me without teaching me the applications to every move he made. None of us are supra geniouses nor are we mind readers, we need instruction and guidance. you dont just sit a child down in a math class and say "ok here is 2+2, now go figure the answer out on your own". as elementary this example is it does make the point that one can be shown a problem/form but in order to understand said problem/form one must be taught the fundamentals in order to find the answers or applications. SD does not do this with their forms.

TWS

[brucereiter]

The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable)

TWS

hi twi and all ...

i will use "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" as an example. here at the atlanta csc as part of regular class we are taught 167 give or take possible applications from the 38 individual postures. i started being taught applications in my first few classes almost 10 years ago. in the 6 months spent to begin to learn "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" we start off with about 4 or 5 applications per section (we split it into 6 sections and spend 1 month on each section on a continuos rotation)

most students after the first 6 months never dig deeper and this is their choice. also theydo not really practice the first applications they are shown outside of class so i think it is their own problem.

the applications are not shoved down our throats though as not all students are interested (and this is ok) we have some older people who are just trying to become more healthy we have some younger people who are not mature enough yet and we have some people who are very interested and very skilled (maybe 10% of the students) the information is there for the taking at the atlanta csc schools, it is just most students do not really care and again i think this is ok ... martial arts are a personal journey and for some learning tai chi as an activity is just as good as learning tai chi chuan as a serious martial art.

my teacher always stressed standing meditation (though he did not call it zhang zuan) i really think only a few students have put in more tha a few moments of practice into zhang zuan, push hands, applications study and sparing. i was always taught it is important to the internal arts so i did the practice and i have noticed in my peers the ones who have done this type of practice along with push hands, applications and sparring all have a certain level of skill and the ones who just go along and run through the form somtimes and that is it well they have an activity that brings them pleasure, are they missing many of the benefits of internal arts practice? yes! but it does not matter if they are happy and enjoy it this is good ...

i think each shaolin do school might be diffrent in how they teach. i have met sd people from each of the major clicks of shaolin do and found both very skilled people with deep understanding and also people who have very little understanding of the internal arts.

one question i have for people outside of shaolin do is at your school what % of students are very skilled and understand and demonstrate internal arts to a high skill level?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know who your SD teacher was (and I mean them no disrespect) but you did not get good instruction. Unfortunately, there are several forms that are taught (seminars, festivals, or just picked up as you go) that you just get them movements but the core material should never be taught without applications. Not hand-holding or spoon-feeding but basic principles and applications to help you understand the style the form is from. By not getting that in you Pa Kua or whatever, you got bad instruction. It is a problem in SD (even sometimes with good instructors who get in a hurry).

Kali is good stuff. I've seen enough of it to respect it and what it teaches. If all you got in SD were good friends, good memories, and good excercise with a simplistic martial understanding then, two things, (1) I'm sorry that you weren't taught more (as you should have been), and (2) I'm glad you could get something out of it before you left.

[Golden Tiger]

Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am.

Now now little fellow, lets keep it civil.

And with out quoting the heck out of the previous posts, I have to agree that if a student is not getting the applications, back ground training and such, then they are not being taught.