Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Green Cloud]

I met a guy once who claimed to do authentic monkey style, when I asked who taught him he took me to the Bronx Zoo and pointed at a Chimpanzee and said that guy.

What was I to say to that, think about it for a second. How hard is it to find some chinese dude in a freak show that looks like a dog??? Just look in the guiness book of world records the kung fu dog boy is in it.

Any way who's to prove what's what, That guy had no family or any lineage to speak of. How can you prove he is not the grandmaster of the system.

Any way I don't care about SD and I have been in this buiss. a long time and when it comes to schools like this their image is created. Throw an old poor Chinese fool some Bucks and you to can have him pose in a kung fu uniform for you while you take a picture.

greencloud.net

[BentMonk]

Very good points.



If there is no "true Shaolin," then by what yardstick are we comparing current Shaolin? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu was MUCH different than the Shaolin practiced at the temple now, but I think the main differences were probably more along the lines of applications, martial intent, fewer forms, and fewer weapons than what we see today. Is it your contention that the Hong and Lohan forms are commercialist Shaolin inventions?

At least some of the money coming to the Monk teachers goes toward Buddhist purposes (In particular, I'm thinking of Shi Guolin.) Granted I'm not a Buddhist, but I can respect money going to a cause other than an MA organization.



As you said, "There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere." Therefore, someone besides us HAS "figured it out." I don't think SD is a "complete fraud" however. I just think the style as a whole should have a slice of humble pie rather than saying "yeah, all you other styles are so fake, just because your arts are Chinese doesn't mean they're REAL."

On a side note, due to a post from another forum user in my area, I found out there's a SD school not too far from where I am currently studying Kung Fu. I wish them the best of luck, as they are currently renting space from a dance school. At our Kung Fu class though, no one has been "up in arms" about it though. You know, kinda like how in REAL life (most) MMA types aren't as snooty about TMA as (most of) the MMA types who post on Martial Arts forums.

No, I don't think the Hong and Lohan forms are recent inventions. I do think that all things MA are very commercialized, especially anything Shaolin. I agree completely that there is a need for some humble pie in SD, but the same could be said of Wing Chun, MMA, or anything else that involves the human ego. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in what you do. The problem arises when that pride swells to the point of closing minds, and creating a false sense of superiority. Not everyone in SD has this problem. I know the same is true in Wing Chun, MMA, etc. because I have known and trained with many people of various MA backgrounds.

[Judge Pen]

From some of the historical posts in this thread (MasterKiller has some excellent posts), Shaolin Do seems to be a by-product of martial arts blending in Indonesia. Why not just come out with it instead of perpetuating the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story?

We do come out with that. There's also the Su Kong sotry. How can you fault us for that (true or not)? Many styles that are well respected have dubious lineages and history blended with myth and superstition. SD is no different.

No one alive today (within the SD organization) including Sin The and Hiang The were alive when Su Kong supposedly existed. It's all based on hearsay and legend. So what if its true?

The only thing verifiable is that we are a blending of chinese martial arts (and a smattering of JMA such as the Ippons) from different teachers in Indonesia.

Flying Monkey, don't be a d1ck. We've talked about this respectfully before. Most CMA history as claimed by respected teachers is bullsh1t. And I do think that SD has ties to the arts taught inside the temples and styles that were prevelant outside the temple. Most of the time people don't take the time to teach them or learn them properly (present company included)

[Judge Pen]

Xia this is one out of many comercial schools that are out there case in point united studios, Vilaris, Shaolin kempo, and so forth. They are all loosely based on CMA.

These styles are only as good as the guy that made them up. One thing these schools are good at is creating an image and marketing themselves.

To admit that they are full of it would not be good for their self image and when it come to the members well they defend their style to the very bitter end.

After all it's hard for martial artist to admit that his Black Belt is lets say just a black belt.

Rank means nothing to me anymore. I respect the time and effort people put into training and sometimes rank is significant of that and other times its significant of money or nepotism.

All CMA forms are only as good as the person who made them up and the manner is which they are passed down.

[Judge Pen]

No problem.

The grandmaster story flies in the face of Chinese martial arts history, thats why it is not to be believed. The Kung Fu craze of the 70s made Shaolin "in" for people interested in martial arts. Claiming to have the ultimate in Shaolin martial arts will sell wheras saying you have a product of Indonesian blending would be more diffucult.

I'm not an old timer, but when SD started it was before the "kung fu" craze. It was called karate openly and the students were told that it was really Chinese in origin and came through Indonesia (where it picked up the Japanese trappings in a Japanese occupied country. So we have always been up front with the blendings of martial arts and their CMA origins.

Heck, people and family I know ask me how my karate or my Tae Kwon Do is going, because to them, its all the same and they have no concept of the differences.

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.

[Judge Pen]

Wich 6 temles are you refering to?? Whats a Hua ??? Iron Bone ??? And you leraned all those styles including Hung Ga Jeeezz louise you must be like great or something.

KCs pretty good. Much better than me, but he's been trainging a lot longer too.

Hell I know reputable guys that have been teaching and studying just Hung Gar for over 30 years and they are still trying to master that style.

I do too. I'm still trying to master the stuff I've learned. It should always be a work in progress.

As far as Flying Monkey who you mistakenly refered as Xia why would you call him a D--k, I have spoken to him on several matters and he seems to be a good guy.

I've spoken to him too and he does seem to be a good guy. Good guys can also act like d1cks from time to time. Nothing agasint him.

He is definately not a troll he studied kung fu under Chan Sao Jung ( the monkey king) as far as I'm concerned he know what's what.

I agree; from our conversations I have no doubt that he knows his monkey.

Tung to long what style of preying mantis you know like seven star or is it southern preying mantis???

KC also knows his stuff. And he studied 7 Star several years ago. Its nice to talk to him and he can point out the difference in the mantis he originally leanred vs. he was that SD plays the mantis and talk about the differnt emphasis and applications of each.

greencloud.net

Sorry, my answers were in bold.

[Flying-Monkey]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

I had some clips of SD. I think they were from Mullen's old site. About 5 years ago, I saved them and showed them to a few masters (hung gar N. Shaolin Wing chun, kempo etc). The first thing most of them did was laugh. But they all agreed that it wasn't kung fu.

I knew I guy in college. I saw him doing a form in the gym. It looked like hung gar but the stances were higher and he was a little stiff. I asked him if he did kung fu. He said "No. It's %$'#! kempo. It is based on Hung gar."

If SD claimed something like that, no one would really have a problem with them. But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional.

My system has a few Mi Zong forms in it. They are Pek Kwar Mi Zong. They are different or they seem to have been . I will not argue with a guy who mainly pratices Mi Zong on these points.

Our Pek Kwar is different from the other Pek Kwar you can see. It is because they are not the same lineage. Our Pek Kwar is hard and direct. If you see TSPK Pek Kwar I form and one of the other Pek Kwars forms, you will see some similarities. BUT there are different. We make not claims of their lineage.

[Green Cloud]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

And I enjoyed speaking with you and we agreed on many things. I was in a ****y mood this morning, so I was probably a bit more abrupt with you than the circumstance dictated. We all have bad days, right? I did notice that your stance and tone on things were much more pleseant and respectful on the phone then on the forum, but that's probably a function of keyboarding.

And I understand that you're tired of SD's claims; that's fine. We're not bothering you. This thread will keep floating around and you don't have to read it if its annoying to you. As we discovered when we spoke, we can actually find quite a few things that we agree on.

[Judge Pen]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

It's not an exculsive SD thread, but it is a thread exclusively about SD (and ocassionly some other topics). I have no problem with people asking legitimate questions, but forgive me for thinking that someone may actually be antagonistic instead of curious. Hung Gar isn't part of SD, but we have a version of Tiger-Crane duet. And KC did study 7 Star mantis before he took the first class of SD. I'm not sure if he studied any Hung Gar, but they man has a diverse MA background before SD. It's nice to compare notes with him.

How you ask goes a long way on how someone will answer. You and I had a friendly discourse on SD because you were polite and respectful while equally communicating your doubt and issues as to the legitimacy of the style. It was because of that communicaiton that I even took the time to post clips of me doing a form and fighting which led to even more discourse.

[Golden Tiger]

Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

Lets see....

1st post

I vote that it is not for real. My vote is based on what they claim they are.

2nd post

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

3rd post

The same goes for the spear vs broadsword.

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.
She showed a lack of understanding of proper attacks and defenses.
Her left hand movement was wrong.

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

There was a website with more forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

2nd post

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

3rd post

kungfujunky, even the Shaolin Doka (a new term) on this forum don't defend such claims.

So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information.

[Radhnoti]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?

FM - "But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional."

Chinese enclaves in Indonesia often indicate they have the "real" kung-fu or that theirs is unchanged or purest. I suppose the feeling (of those IN the enclaves) is that the cultural revolution forced so much change, to the martial arts still inside China, that those martial artists in the Chinese enclaves were the last "true" practitioners. Also, many styles of kuntao teach bagua, hsing-i, and tai chi.
I've compared some kuntao schools claims against those of SD and the similarities, in many cases, is surprising.

Here's a website backing a bit of what I said:
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao.htm

Here's one that echoes GM Sin's, "If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport."

http://www.worldkungfu.com/kunhist.html

Here's a site stating that many kuntao schools had to rename their arts because of an Indonesian hatred of Chinese things/people:

ww.absoluteastronomy.com /encyclopedia/k/ku/kuntao.htm

Here's a kuntao school that renamed itself "kempo" because Japanese schools were so common...they also claim shaolin lineage, as do so many other kuntao schools:

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/art7.html

Anyway...there's LOTS more out there, in fact every time I check google to make little replies like this I find new things I hadn't before. Shaolin-do is kuntao and the stances they take on lots of issue are NOT dissimilar to other kuntao schools, in my opinion.

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?

Unfortunately I can't remember where, but I think it was in a book from China. If I come across it I'll post the reference up here. But it's hard to forget a hairy faced guy.

[The Xia]

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.

No problem Judge Pen.

And heres for you Golden Tiger.

My first post

Wow this thread is long lol. Is this KFM's longest thread? Just from skimming through, this seems like a very complex and convoluted situation. Would someone be kind enough to define Shaolin-Do in a nutshell?

This was ignored so I then posted.

I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin-Do
From first glance, one thing I find suspect is that Su Kong T'ai Djin mastered everything in the Shaolin temple and is therefore the "first ever Grandmaster of Shaolin."
Would you guys say this article is accurate?
And heres a challenge for you guys who've been debating the details back and forth.......is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin Gongfu?
And are they really making a movie on Sin The?

Then after this.

I've skimmed through this thread and others, looked at a little bit of outside stuff. There are alot of outrageous claims made in Shaolin Do. Normally, seeing such stuff would lead me to think "mcdojo!". However, Judge Pen seems to be way too savvy a guy to fall prey to Bullshido. From the surface of Shaolin Do information that I scratched, it seems that behind all the cooky claims there is something to it. As far as the cooky claims, when you combine bureaucracy with commercialism thats what you get. This is the impression Im getting.

And lastly.

Yeah the fact that some are mcdojos and others aren't makes me wonder. It says in the wikipedia article that all Shaolin Do belt testing is done by Sin The. If so, does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?

These were my first posts. Far less blunt huh? I knew some on this forum, like Judge Pen, didn't buy the Su Kong story. It not only reads like a myth, it defies Gung Fu history. However, no one answered straight up what Shaolin Do is when I first asked. Its pretty clear that its a product of Indonesian blending (as Judge Pen acknowledged), but Shaolin Do sites still stick to the "Grandmaster" story. Look at http://www.shaolin-do.com/

[Green Cloud]

Lets see....

1st post


2nd post


3rd post


His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post Ok let's see flying monkeys posted that the style isn't real, let's look at the title of the thread. It's asking members to give their opinion on whether the style is real or not. FM simply stated his opinion


2nd post FM is once again giving his educated opinion on the strait sword and simply offering his critique. It didn't seem rood



3rd post FM talks abou the two man set, well after watching it my self I would have to say that it was a bit chopy and the set didn't display the same type of energy that one sees in traditional 2 man sets. Lets just say it's different.




So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information.

I don't know if you guys ever venture on the other forums like the KFF and the southern forum it's absolutely cut throat. FM was being reserved in my opinion.

Hell I'm a respected Sifu and the guys on this forum go off on me all the time, You can't take it to heart it's just a way to cut through the fat.

Once again from what I've read here I don't think these guys are out of line at all.

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

Just change the name of the thread to we are SD and we don't care what the rest of you think. That will eliminate nasty discusions.

greencloud.net