Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Xia]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.

Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form.

[The Xia]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.'
As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust."

[kungfujunky]

Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form.

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you

as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge

[lunghushan]

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

I think it might have been in a book from kungfulibrary.com, but I can't remember.

I definitely came across a reference to that guy somewhere before hearing about Shaolin-Do, but I can't remember where.

As for the Circus thing, just because the guy was in the circus doesn't mean he didn't do martial arts. For example, a lot of martial arts were passed on by people in the Opera, for example Fook Yeung, who still is around and kicking I think in Seattle, and who Bruce Lee trained with after coming to the U.S. (something that people seem to forget about or just never knew about).

[The Xia]

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you

I directly quoted you. I didn't say it was not your opinion. However, your opinion is a defense of the picture's use in response to Willow Sword's research. So it is an excuse.
Here is the definition of excuse from dictionary.com
"–verb (used with object)
1. to regard or judge with forgiveness or indulgence; pardon or forgive; overlook (a fault, error, etc.): Excuse his bad manners.
2. to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill.
3. to serve as an apology or justification for; justify: Ignorance of the law excuses no one.
4. to release from an obligation or duty: to be excused from jury duty.
5. to seek or obtain exemption or release for (oneself): to excuse oneself from a meeting.
6. to refrain from exacting; remit; dispense with: to excuse a debt.
7. to allow (someone) to leave: If you'll excuse me, I have to make a telephone call.
–noun
8. an explanation offered as a reason for being excused; a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation, promise, etc.: His excuse for being late was unacceptable.
9. a ground or reason for excusing or being excused: Ignorance is no excuse.
10. the act of excusing someone or something.
11. a pretext or subterfuge: He uses his poor health as an excuse for evading all responsibility.
12. an inferior or inadequate specimen of something specified: That coward is barely an excuse for a man. Her latest effort is a poor excuse for a novel."
Your defense fits the definition of an excuse.

As for the William Hung thing....well that was just a joke and you have to admit its clever.

as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge

There are many traditional martial arts techniques you can't use in sanctioned tournaments. However, this does not mean that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments. If it were true that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments, then you can't spar without being killed or maimed. This is obviousely not the case. Therefore, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments.

[kungfujunky]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.

and why spar in a tournament when the judges wont acknowledge your strikes and many of the openings you are trained to react to arent allowed?

i know people who have went to tournaments to spar and the judges simply did not count their strikes.

again i did not say you cant use it in tournaments...i said i agree with the quote that tournament training is not what we do. we train to fight and protect ourselves. yes we learn deadly moves...many of them in fact...but on the street im sure those moves would not be the first ones used lol

i myself actually practice non lethal moves so as to stop a fight instead of causing physical damage to my opponent. most people will back off when a palm strike to the chest sends them flying.

part of the shaolin way is exactly what gmt says. we learn to destroy so that we may preserve. which i interprut to mean i learn how to defend myself with great efficiency so that when the time comes for a fight i can simply walk away knowing their was no real threat to me or my pride. i dont have to prove myself in tournaments or on the street.






having said all that yes i have gotten into fights on the street. only 2 though since i began my training.

i failed in the respect that i did not walk away but i did take care of the attackers without harming them which i am proud of.

[lunghushan]

We should probably just drop the real vs. not real arguments. How are you supposed to know if they are 'real' or not? What is 'real' anyway? Really Shaolin? Who the heck cares?

Find some old ancient manuals and see if it matches up, that's about the best you could do.

[Radhnoti]

Wow, TWS, I apologize for not commenting on those pics before...that looks like the same guy to me. Same lips, same eyes, similar hair length (long on nose and top, but small beard). I didn't see where you mentioned corresponding with the author of the article before? Did that happen a good while after you posted that? Bejing zoo exhibit? I wonder if that was a traveling exhibit? Lots of second hand info has GM Ie traveling around all over "even up into Korea".

'Course everyone knows I think Tai Djin (Li?) was a circus performer that taught Ie as they roamed around with the show...and, really, who's to say Su Kong Tai Djin/Li didn't know a shaolin form or two...or 900?

No, actually, I've always felt that to be overstated as well...I have heard that GM Sin's brother rolls his eyes at the 900+ forms statement. If true, GM Sin is certainly not "on schedule" to have all the material taught to students in his lifetime, how many have been taught out, in total? 300? 400? Less than half in 40ish years? I know he's in good health (and I hope he continues to be) but if he's thinkin' he'll have another 40 years to get it all out...well...GM Ie died at much younger than 100.

[The Xia]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.

You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

[lunghushan]

You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

San Shou sucks. All you can do is "punch, kick and throw." Might as well just do kickboxing.

[brucereiter]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?

hi xia,

i wonder the same thing about grandmaster the' if he cares about some of the "wild" claims.

i think many misunderstandings have come from things said in james halladay's book. i do not think they were Malicious though just misunderstandings that for reasons unknown to me were never corrected.

i have heard some stories from gmt first hand and they seem to be the truth and then i have read about the same story somewhere else and i am like that is not what he said or meant ...

i think this quote is good and represents part of what shaolin do is. maybe a little dramitic but valid.

sd is not a sport, bagua for example one of the main internal arts in shaolin do most of the moves in this style are not appropriate for a tournament as they would cause bodily harm that is not to say you cant beat someone with out hurting them but ...

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?

[The Xia]

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?

Saying that it is too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

[lunghushan]

Okay, I didn't really look at this before. 900 forms ...

"The Fukien Shaolin monks took it upon themselves to protect the Fukienese coast from the raids of Japanese pirates. They were tremendously effective, earning the love and respect of the common people. When word reached the Ch'ing Kwang Hsu Emperor in Peking, at the beginning of the 20th century, trouble brewed. Kwang Hsu saw the Fukien monks as potential rebels with widespread popular support. He secretly dispatched imperial troops, armed with cannons on a mission to destroy the Fukien Temple. He even sent a renegade Shaolin Master, Chi Tao Su, the White Eyebrow Monk, to strengthen the attacking force."

Yeah ... right ... Bak Mei lives in the 20th century ... LMAO Why would you send a monk to strengthen a force that had guns and cannons? ???? ?????? ???????????

Whatever ... who knows ... if it works for you, great, but don't expect anybody else to believe these stories.

[lunghushan]

The part about most of it being too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

Tournaments these days are kindof crap if you can't do grappling.

[brucereiter]

Saying that it is too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

i agree it sounds dramitic ... also your comments are valid ... i guess it all depends on how you interperate his words ...

i train in the internal arts ... one thing i really focus on is the ability to control a person with out hurting them. at the same time i understand how to cause great damage.
i dont like the often excuse that i lost because i could not use eye gouges or what ever it is a cop out ...