Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

No one has any clips of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

There have been a couple of forms floating about here. I think they are posted in the "Shaolin-Do Video" thread.

[The Willow Sword]

Great that you found these other pics.
i hope that you get a response from Prof Dikotter.

wow these pics are pretty obvious to me, and in a few of them you see li baoshu wearing a suit and tie

so we await the response. TWS

[ninthdrunk]

JP -

Oh, I feel the same way. I'm on this thread at least five times a day! It's kinda sad really...hehehe. Anyway, I come to see what questions are being asked and to see what other in the MA community feel about our system. I appreciate just about every bit of info that I get from this thread.

But, when I don't have an answer to people's questions, I try to just not give an answer, rather than telling them my opinion on SD in general. When someone asks a lineage question, it seems that rather than admit most of us don't know, there are tons of SDers who jump up and say, "well, it works, so who cares about lineage?" If I were the person asking about lineage, that would just **** me off.

But, I agree with you that, despite the side-tracking, derailing and bickering, there's a couple of good posts in this thread worth reading!



Speaking of Derailing:


any SDers out there specializing in a particular aspect of the art? What are you working on, and how are you taking steps toward specialization?

[brucereiter]

Does anyone know of any videos of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

it is more of a demo but ...

[Radhnoti]

JP - "Frankly, I always didn't know what I thought or believed and this forum is an anvil for me to hammer out these thoughts."

I'm with you there...I just posted a meandering piece about economics earlier that I'd barely thought about in 15 years. I use forums in the same way, to "sharpen the sword" so to speak...plus you pick up a few good ideas here and there.

[The Willow Sword]

my God KC are you even reading what you are writing here?

This denial is staggering. its like you are grasping at straws, i mean listen to yourself.

Even the 2 pics I posted togethor dont appear to be the same person for the above reasons.

so you are now saying that the pic on the hiang the site is not the same person as the suit and tie pic of apparently the same grandmaster su??????? that would make the case for the fabrication of lineage right there,according to what you just wrote

Another theory perhaps the pic SD has is the one of Li Baoshu because the pic is the one given to GM The by GGM Ie and it has been used so long because it was the only one GM The had. And even if it is Li Baoshu it does not disprove anything except the pic is of a person who is not the person we thought it was.

So according to you even if it is really li baoshu, the birth and death dates of su kong/li baoshu are still solid? it says the article photographs were taken in 1921 and his age clearly states he was 34. now according to what you have written here that if the suit and tie su kong is in fact li baoshu then the birth and death date of su kong is also fabricated. (1849-1928) for su kongs birth and death, right?

KC you need to check your head brother. sit back and breathe deep and gather yourself before you start to make another one of these "theory" posts.

Does anyone else recongize what i am seeing here?
TWS

[Radhnoti]

I wasn't even thinking about the fact that we've got dates on Li. It says he was in New York in 1939 (presumably the pics captioned "Look Out New York!" would be from that year). Su Kong Tai Djin was supposed to have died in 1928, so that's 11 years beyond shaolin-do's first GM's supposed date of death and he doesn't look to be in terribly poor health.
A professional opinion that they are the same person would be pretty d@mning and I'd even go so far as to say that the picture hanging in probably every shaolin-do school is not correct. It would be logical to assume that someone lied. Either GM Ie to GM Sin or GM Sin to students (possibly just about dates...a charge that's been leveled before by his brother about the date of death of GM Ie).
Not meaning to put the cart before the horse here...the fellow JP has written might have revised his opinion...especially if JP includes the photo with the bear from GM Hiang's website so he has more to work with?
Looking forward to hearing the outcome...

[BlueTravesty]

Here is the web site if this works you can click on it and you will see 3 pics the site is a genetic research site for hypertrichosis the Bibliography lists the sources . They say the person in the pic is as we of SD have said it is Soo Kong not Li Baoshu. This is an independent non martial art site . Unbiased with no dog in this fight.
evolution.massey.ac.nz/lecture4/docs/hypertri.htm http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/lectur...s/hypertri.htm OK you can click on it take a look.

Sorry TWS this will counter your supposed claim of the pic being Li Baoshu or he would be listed as him KC

That COULD counter the claim, but this does not do so conclusively. The guy who did the site could have simply looked for pictures of hypertrichosis. Now, HOW many times does the Su Kong picture appear on the net? Also, where have you ever seen Tai Jin referred to as a "Buddhist Master." I'm guessing that neither the picture, nor the "Buddhist Master" description came from any of those books the guy listed. Of course, a researcher who isn't familiar with Martial Arts or Shaolin, will just wade through all the MA-related stuff and see "Ah, it was a Buddhist temple." and play it safe by calling the guy a "Buddhist Master"

I'm not saying whether or not SKTJ and Li Baoshu are the same guy, since they kinda look like they could go either way. I mean, Li Baoshu looks like Tai Jin, but only in certain pics. Then again, I don't always look exactly in every picture either. Imagine how a full coat of fur would complicate matters? It's not cut and dry.

Even if the pic IS fake, it doesn't mean that SD is a sham, it just means that SD has no more claim to "TEH TROO SHAOLIN STYLEZZZ" than ANY other CMA or CMA-based martial arts system (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shorin Ryu Karate, Shorinji Kempo, etc.) Of course, that's the case even if the pic is REAL, so the point is moot...

[The Willow Sword]

KC i too came across this website and that pic when i did my initial research back in 2002. If you will note that pic of su kong is the same format pic that all the SD sites use. so i would contend that the author of that site just copied and pasted that pic onto his article of the disease he was researching and called him "the buddhist master" as a general reference.

now lets explore your "proof" that discounts my "proof". lets say that the good dr whomever who did his research on the hypertrichosis disease attained this picture from another source, well then WHERE DID HE GET IT FROM? why dont you email this Dr and ask where he got it from? i will just bet a buffalo nickel that he will say he got it from a martial arts website

Sorry KC but you are still grabbing at straws here and the ground is still trembling below you. but good try though (east indian accent "THANKYOUUUU COME AGAIN".

TWS

[The Xia]

Even if the pic IS fake, it doesn't mean that SD is a sham, it just means that SD has no more claim to "TEH TROO SHAOLIN STYLEZZZ" than ANY other CMA or CMA-based martial arts system (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shorin Ryu Karate, Shorinji Kempo, etc.) Of course, that's the case even if the pic is REAL, so the point is moot...

Thats not really true BlueTravesty. The Five Elders story about the Southern Shaolin Temple is present in many lineages and folk tales. The Su Kong Southern Shaolin Temple story is only present in Shaolin Do. In fact, the Su Kong story contradicts the Five Elders story.

[lunghushan]

Look, I'm totally sick of this crap.

Who the heck cares? Hairy ape dude ... just give it up already. In fact it's more revolting TWS has spent hours researching than Shaolin-Do spends hours practicing. At least they're practcing martial arts.

Who cares where it comes from? It's irrelevant. They have an entire forum to debunk B.S. And it's not this forum.

If you think people are being duped, don't go to it. Obviously they're getting something out of it or they wouldn't be going and they're mostly redneck southerners or midwesterners anyway, so who the heck cares?

All you people seem to do, Chinese and Indonesian / Kun Tao is debate lineage endlessly.

What about the martial arts, do you ever even TALK about those? NO ... it's just lineage, history ... utter CRAPOLA.

Can you beat down the other person? Does anything else matter?

[The Willow Sword]

calm down lunghushan clam down, breathe and relax, breathe and relax. have some chamomile tea, jerk off wipe up and just relaaaaaxxxx. LOL.

oh and BTW. my research didnt take hours. i practice martial arts lunghushan i swear i do. i really really do

LOL the surreal has made a turn for the funny. TWS

[The Xia]

Lineage is important neilhytholt (lungushan). A practitioner of any art should know what he practicing.

[lunghushan]

You know, the thing that sickens me most about CMA is pretty simple.

It's that you spend more time massaging your egos than you do analyzing the actual martial arts.

I have yet to see one Shaolin-Do form. Not one. Therefore how can I possibly pass judgement on their martial arts?

I cannot. There's no way ... do you judge a book without reading the words? Do you judge a book by its cover, by the hype surrounding it, by the marketing material?

All the crap about lineage, history, 900 forms, that's just marketing material. That has nothing to do with the martial art. Nothing to do with the skills of the teacher or practitioners.

It helps somewhat that there are NO Shaolin-Do schools anywhere near me. For all I know they could be the best martial arts in the world or they could be as bad as USSD.

Anyway, that's the rant for the evening.

If you think that I'm picking on USSD I'm not. All CMA seems to be the same in this respect. EGO over SUBSTANCE. And it's just stupid as hell.

Goodnight all.

[lunghushan]

Lineage is important neilhytholt (lungushan). A practitioner of any art should know what he practicing.

Lineage is NOT important. I've been beaten by bar-room brawlers. I've met thugs off the street that are probably better than ALL of you.

If you can't analyze the forms, if you can't judge the martial arts by the skills of the practitioners then you are no better than zombies.

Yang Jun and the Yang family lineage teaches in my town. Of the entire United States, of the entire WORLD they decided to teach in my town. The entire headquarters of Yang Family Tai Ji is in my town.

They have pedigree up the Yazoo but you'd be hard pressed to find ANYBODY from their school that could fight their way out of a paper bag.

As a matter of fact, they are primarily Microsoft nerds who are 30+ years old and do not even care about self defense or fighting ability.

So does lineage matter? NO ... it does not matter. It means NOTHING except to assuage your ego that you're studying something worthwhile if you cannot judge for YOURSELF what the martial arts are worth.

So by pursuing all this lineage nonsense you are only showing how pitifully inadequate you are. That's the truth of it.