Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

In martial arts, a grandmaster is a Sigung. Someone who's student(s) has student(s). .

the above is i think a good partial definition but i would expand this to say they have been appointed or chosen by the previous grandmaster (leader of a martial arts organization) and will decide in the future who will take control of the system after him.
there are many people under grandmaster the who have their own students and thoses students have students and so on this does not make them a "grandmaster" it makes them someone who has students.

at any rate grandmaster the was chosen by his teacher to be the leader and this is what as far as i know caused him to become "grandmaster".

However, in Shaolin Do, grandmaster is being used to mean something along the lines of the Japanese term Soke. And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)

i think the above is an interitation taken to the wrong extreme.

i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim. i do not think there have ever been claims that gmt is the leader of shaolin temple or ever a part of the current temple under abbot yong xin. he does however as far as i know claim to be the grandmaster of shaolin meaning he is the "holder" of a collection or martial arts known as "shaolin do".

:-)

[Shaolin]

Incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true or real. If someone believes that William Shatner is a 2 foot tall cross between a frog and a lobster, that doesn't make it true.

Belief from one does not make something a truth but belief from many does. Example religion, government, mathmatics, language. One day long ago some decided to call a child William Shatner, they introduce him to others as William Shatner. Many years later everyone believes this man is William Shatner. You believe I am incorrect, convince others of this and I will be incorrect. Keep searching Xia, I believe someday you'll see it to.

[The Xia]

Mass belief doesn't make it real either. In the past there was a widely held belief that left handed people were inherently evil. That doesn't make it true.

[Shaolin]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.

[The Xia]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.

It wasn't true in the past. People just believed it to be.

[Radhnoti]

I think Shaolin is pointing out that "truth" is often just perspective...a philosophical point he can defend 'til doomsday.

SDIC - "i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim."

I agree. You're ignoring where the shaolin-do term "grandmaster" originated...or, if you're a skeptic, where SD claims it originated. Shaolin-do uses this title to boost confidence in it's "rightness". "We are only two generations removed from the REAL shaolin temple, and our lineage is of the highest caliber. From the only shaolin grandmaster at the historic temple to his successor, to GM Sin."
Maybe this wasn't touted quite as much at your school...but it's certainly everywhere you look in the organizational literature.

KC - "I think just the supreme authority on Shaolin Do but his knowledge of all things Shaolin is truly astounding."

I agree...which is what makes this so tragic. SD almost certainly has "the truth" from it's perspective. How great it would be, for martial historians if no one else, if you could take the puzzle piece it has and fit it in with all the other pieces.

[Judge Pen]

hehe i think the reason why some here actually "like" me is because they see me as the weird uncle that comes around from time to time, not a threat persay, but just the weird uncle that occasionally rants and raves. Everyone is entertained by the funny uncle Your affectionate weird uncle,TWS

That's a perfect description!

[The Xia]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.

[Judge Pen]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.

True; however, its mythos none-the-less. Su Kong or the 5 Elders do not have to be based in fact for the martial arts that claim lineage through them to be legitimate.

[tattooedmonk]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.

but ..is it possible that the five elders lineage could have been from a lesser known temple in the area of fujian/ fukien that may have been associated with Sil lum?

and that because the workings of the actual Shaolin temple were done in secret that this is why the legend of Su Kong is not known?

and /or that the five elders story was made up just to make claims that they were Shaolin /Sil lum to add credabilty ??

or that maybe just because the five elders were known to be shaolin and because of there geographical location they were associated with Sil lum??

It comes down to this... Is Shaolin Do A real Shaolin Art or is it just borrowing a name to add legitamacy to what they teach?

If anyone who knows anything about CMA and Shaolin would easily be able to tell from the actual forms that it is shaolin.

It is the unknown history / lineage and the outward appearence that has you all f@@ked up??

Forget what has been passed on by lineage and tradition and look at the body of material that Shaolin Do has to offer and you can surely see that it is real Shaolin.

I have 25 years martialarts experince and 15 years in Shaolin Do and I have studied with many masters and I can tell you that Shaolin Do is one of the most comprehensive martial arts in the world because of the large body of material that is taught.

It is only the way that it is taught and practiced that I have issues with.

For example.... rigid format ,out of date teaching methods ,lack of practical sparring ( tag does not teach you how to fight )and application.... As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

It is the quality of the art that is most important . I believe that too much emphasis is put on learning all this material without any true understanding of what is really going on. why ?? because most people think that to be a better martial artist that they have to have all these forms and all this rank to be good and to get the recognition that they want. Bull Sh** it is all about their ego.

The stuff about the forms....sparring techniques all together are a form, the short forms all together are one form, the breathing and meditation classes are considered a form, all the self defense/ chin na are considered a form..at least this is what I was taught coming up through the system. So you can see that what is considered a form is subjective. As well as the fact that many forms are found in many systems , preying mantis for example, this could be how the total number of forms exceeds 900+.

But a question that I have and no one has ever offered any explanation is..... how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms? And yes I understand that 900+ is more than 300+ but why does it make such a drastic increase in the number of forms... seeing as the art supposedly only came from Su Kong through Ie Chang Ming to Master Sin?

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

[ricardocameron]

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

[Golden Tiger]

how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms?

Welcome back TTM, haven't seen you around in a while. Perhaps you will have to ask Master Halladay (not Holiday). I think as another stated, that forms were added as well as systems along the way, some by Master Ie and some by Master Sin.

I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

Really? which ones?

As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

While I am not up on my theoretical physics nor do I have a Ph.D in Kinesiology, I would dare to say that most of us instructors know quite a bit.

[Judge Pen]

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

[ricardocameron]

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

Thanks. That's where i saw it, I remember that letter, now.

[humbleman]

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